4 Stroke engine woes

[Badland1]

Last week I made my 8th unplanned "emergency" landing. 7 of those 8 landings were directly related to the failure of a component due to improper installation at the engine builder level. Let this be a strong warning that if you choose to put a 4-stroke, 390cc, 420cc, or 460cc engine on your Badland, please be cautious of who you purchase it from.

For all future 4-stroke engines, Badland Aircraft will be building them only for customers that purchase a kit or a RTF Ultralight directly from us.

Please note Badland Aircraft is NO LONGER in cahoots with Kid Chaos Concepts or Scott Skalski of Michigan in ANY way shape of form.

Thanks:)

[LA F2 Flyer]

Very interesting news...thank you very much for the warning!

Were all seven engine-outs a result of failure of the same part? Inquiring minds want to know!

[13brv3]

Interesting for sure. I thought they were pushing the 460 too hard if they were getting anywhere near the HP they claimed. I'd also be interested in knowing the failure modes. I could see overheating being a problem.

Rusty

[Badland1]

It's been a few different issues, some related, some isolated, most catastrophic. A few concerns found during inspection; unsafe deck heights, incorrect clocking on piston rings, valve hardware lacking loctite or proper torque values, improper crankcase ventilation, out of round flywheels, damaged re-drive pulleys, improper ignition component installation, complete exhaust failure, incorrect main crank seal installation, and some intake porting issues that should've gotten attention. When issues were blanket addressed fault was admitted, but never supported or compensated. Now I'm getting ghosted.

Good news is, we have an original one that we rebuilt before it went out and it's performing great!!

[LA F2 Flyer]

Wow, that is a lot to slip by the QC process...

[LA F2 Flyer]

Wow, that is a lot to slip by the QC process...

So what does the future hold in terms of Badland and 4-strokes? A similar power unit but built in-house?

[13brv3]

It's been a few different issues, some related, some isolated, most catastrophic. A few concerns found during inspection; unsafe deck heights, incorrect clocking on piston rings, valve hardware lacking loctite or proper torque values, improper crankcase ventilation, out of round flywheels, damaged re-drive pulleys, improper ignition component installation, complete exhaust failure, incorrect main crank seal installation, and some intake porting issues that should've gotten attention. When issues were blanket addressed fault was admitted, but never supported or compensated. Now I'm getting ghosted.

Good news is, we have an original one that we rebuilt before it went out and it's performing great!!

That's quite a list. Thanks for the details.

Rusty

[Flex]

I really appreciate Badland1 chiming in with the issues he's experienced! Always nice to see some open and honest dialogue versus always being told that everything is rainbows and unicorns. Thank you!

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Last week I made my 8th unplanned "emergency" landing. 7 of those 8 landings were directly related to the failure of a component due to improper installation at the engine builder level. Let this be a strong warning that if you choose to put a 4-stroke, 390cc, 420cc, or 460cc engine on your Badland, please be cautious of who you purchase it from.

For all future 4-stroke engines, Badland Aircraft will be building them only for customers that purchase a kit or a RTF Ultralight directly from us.

Please note Badland Aircraft is NO LONGER in cahoots with Kid Chaos Concepts or Scott Skalski of Michigan in ANY way shape of form.

Thanks:)

Wow Chris, that's insane. Those is not good odds!

I still would like a 4 stroke, but we'll talk about that more down the road.

Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

...down the runway?

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

...down the runway?

Depends on if I end up with the same issues Chris has run into (down the road) or if the engine is reliable (down the runway) That F23 just gained a few notches up the possibility scale. I still would like a 4 stroke, but ... it needs to run properly and be reliable first!

Todd

[mrpilotron]

Well, I wonder if anyone would notice the minor weight gain with a Jabiru 2200? Those seem to be very reliable.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Haha, now THAT I want to see.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I would love to have the skills to build a nice boxer twin 4 stroke, specifically for Ultralights and PPG. I saw Tucker Gott order a Chinese boxer twin as part of an entry PPG from Ali Express. It was funny, and it didn't fly well at all, just getting off the ground after a long run. However, I would love to see a boxer twin at 35 to 45hp in 4 stroke configuration. The engine was really designed for very large remote control aircraft and had just enough power to get Tucker off the ground.

Todd

[mrpilotron]

BMW motorcycles made some nice boxer 2-cylinder engines. I just did a quick search and found that they are WAY beyond the weight we'd want to put on these aircraft. If you're willing to have that much weight, you might as well employ a standard aircraft engine that's designed from the beginning to power aircraft. At this point, we're basically full circle back to a 1/2 VW engine being a solid contender.

[13brv3]

The Briggs BSV23 is probably the most successfully used industrial engine from what I can see. That's still far from a bulletproof option though. The Legal Eagle guys are flying them essentially unmodified, and they've been used for almost a decade in Europe with and without a PSRU. I have about 4 hrs on one on a tests stand that was a summer project. If I had anything to bolt it on, I'd be flying it. I ran a thread about on the Homebuilt Aircraft forum. https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/foru ... ine.49793/

Rusty

[mrpilotron]

Rusty, I followed that thread extensively over the summer. It looks like it would be a great option for anyone who can accept the weight. If I ever get my DeLorean running, I'll zip back to 1982 and lobby real hard for max weight of 300 lbs. (Maybe pick up a few hundred shares of Microsoft stock while I'm there too.)

[Badland1]

I flew 29 minutes (timer starts automatically at 35mph) yesterday with 4 take off & landings. It burned just over a gallon. Just a bit rich, right where I like it on break in. Temps were perfect and stable. Heat wasn't an issue, and never has been. I'm monitoring "spark plug base" temp (CHT), oil temp, EGT (temporarily for tuning), wideband o2 (also temporary), and RPM. 5000RPM @ 55mph cruise feels nice. Could trim up a bit and lower rpm or increase speed, but it's great for testing purposes. I love it! The airfoil is a 55ish cruise foil and it's liking the power curve Fairly consistent 450FPM at 42mph ish (meh, needs STOL wings (but they don't fold.)) I've seen 6k rpm but laid off a bit after 2 seconds. 5750 feels strong. Every take off was quartering hind, winds 13mph Gusting 21 from behind my 65ft tall grove and I was still off in 300ft without forcing it at all. All the landings were sub 130ft.

I still believe in the platform. Heat was Never an issue.. So detuned to 34hp -ish-, balanced down the thrust line, designed with reliability as the core focus (not power / not profit) and built with absolute precision, this is a very viable option.

I like the 4-stroke and I'll put one together for a kit or RTF client if they so desire. There is no way I can tell you a TBO until we fly them more. So quit typing and go fly, please.

-Chris

[Kevin]

Thanks Chris, awesome write-up! That's what we are all looking for. You'll be building me an engine!
Kevin

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I like the 4-stroke and I'll put one together for a kit or RTF client if they so desire. There is no way I can tell you a TBO until we fly them more. So quit typing and go fly, please.

-Chris

Well you know I want that 4 stroke and why. The 55 sounds great. I'll be happy to stop typing.....but..... Well, you know.

I'm a terrible fisherman, but trying to be patient.

Thanks for the testing and write up.

Todd

[Bill in MN]

My 460 had issues right from the beginning.
The rocker shaft had no thread lock on it and came loose in the air. I got down safely.
Timing was off resulting in huge kickback and difficulty starting. Retarding a few degrees helped the matter.
Excessive crank case pressure filled the 12+ oz catch can in 10-15 min flights. After tearing down we found the ring gaps to be less than 1/2" from each other creating a few issues, pressure being one. Once new rings were properly installed oil spew was no longer a problem and the motor ran great. Case pressure can be an issue with the 390/420/460 platform but not to this degree and there are things that can be done to deal with it. I might add that the motor was put back exactly as it was (save for ring end gap placement) I made no changes, which leads to this.......

This happened about a month ago now. Having flown for two 1+ hr stints in a row (came in for fuel) my motor threw its internals out of the case and power was lost at around 500 ish feet. I was too far away to make the runway, had swamp on one side, forest below and a lake to the right. It took a few seconds to get over the WTF is going on phenomenon and ditching in the lake was the best option, both then and in hindsight. Obviously I got out but it all could have gone very, very badly.

Myself and and A/P did an autopsy on the motor and found the piston to have disintegrated, resulting in the rod breaking into several pieces. We were able to determine there was 0 deck height and there was clear evidence of the piston coming into contact with the head. I suspect the contact, (slight though it may have been) eventually weakened the piston over the 15 hrs the motor amassed. I did notify the builder, not to assess blame but to strongly suggest that there were problems with these motors and sooner or later someone is going to get killed. I did not/have not heard anything back and doubt that I will........it doesn't matter.

I've held off saying anything about all of this but enough time has passed. I've had a good chance to reflect on what happened and how very badly this could have gone. That said, there was damage to my plane but it's put back together and ready for a new engine. As far as an engine, I'm all in with the 4 stroke. Since this happened I've learned volumes about these motors and properly done they are a viable platform. I've a new motor getting the rotating assy balanced as we speak and I hope to be in the air within a few weeks. There is no reason to shoot the moon for a high HP motor. The Kitfox/Belite/Badland planes perform fine with 35hp, a figure that is very doable with off the shelf parts from multiple suppliers.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Wow...thanks for the write-up and some good insight into the situation with these engines. That is a hell of a story for sure.

[13brv3]

Sorry to hear the tale of woe, but thanks for posting.
Rusty

[fly44d]

Thanks for the stories Bill and Chris!

Since my 460 is one of the first and gone through by Chris I am still confident in it, although never flying beyond a field, beach, or dirt road I can reach.

[Badland1]

Thanks for the stories Bill and Chris!

Since my 460 is one of the first and gone through by Chris I am still confident in it, although never flying beyond a field, beach, or dirt road I can reach.

I'm so jealous of the flight time and views you get in that bird 44d! Keep it up! You rock! I notice myself constantly planning an unplanned landing too! LOL

I'm at 8 squawk free gallons of fuel burned, about 3/4 ounce of oil thru the crappy stock main seals (I have some new, specific, VTX and NBR seals to stack on the crank on the way), and around 4 hours of pretty abusive flight on this setup and it's going great. Internal oil pool location is always on my mind as I fly. I try not to "G" the plane for a long period of time in any certain pitch or attitude that wouldn't favor the proper oiling of components. With this trike being soooo much more tame than a tail dragger, it's pretty easy to keep everything splashing where I think it's ok.

Just a note; Each and every component of any aircraft engine needs absolute attention to detail. Some can handle that, some don't have the focus.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Really good information and also nice to have you back on the ground in one piece. Like they say, it's not if, it's when. However, that's no excuse for a poor build. Thanks for posting. That's what this forum is for, sharing good, and bad situations, and all learning from them, so thank you again.

Todd

[Kevin]

Chris, we need to see some videos of the engine, tricycle gear, everything...we're hungry for any and all. Please keep posting.

[Bill in MN]

Given there was virtually nothing left of my motor I started by pushing the Easy Button and went with a 420 Predator from Harbor Freight as the base. I went with the 420 because the aftermarket product/support and knowledge base with the Predator is huge. It is pretty much the go-to for a lot of go kart/golf cart/mini bike/mud motor builds. Everything I'm doing to this motor has been done countless times and is well proven; there is absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel. I'll guess Chris's 460 will have a bit more power than mine due to a few more CC's but it should be minimal.

These are relatively simple motors and building one up is doable for a lot of people. Chris is spot on in saying that the devil is in the details and attention to those details is paramount.

The rotating assy should be back from the balance shop later this week and I hope to have everything back together and flyable shortly thereafter.