Build Log Discussion - ksatter26

[ksatter26]

I've been without internet (or TV) for over 2 weeks (neighbor got a new backhoe and cut my relatively new fiber optic connection).

IVO Prop makes a really nice 3-blade, ground adjustable prop at a reasonable price. The guys there are most helpful in advise.

Minus 15, 30 mph winds gave us -5 wind-chill ... no work got done. Warming up some so I hopet o get back to it.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

One would think that after 100 years of flying, these things would be figured out. I'm sure they are to a degree, but I don't think there's a university around that will loan me some super computer time to run some simulations and figure all this stuff out. Of course, I'll also need a few students to write the formulas! LOL

[LA F2 Flyer]

Oh man, the neighbor cut your line? That's tough, but nice to see you back on here! Hopefully the weather gives you a break soon and you can get back to building! I'm very much enjoying your updates and following your build.

[ksatter26]

I have a source of 100 LL Avgas somewhat at the Caddo Mills Airport (about 16 miles away). Lots of open flat space grass runways and a nice 3000'+ asphault. I'll be testing the bird there while getting my 700' grass strip into shape. I also have a case of Blue Diamond 2-stroke oil. It was recommended by the Hirth folks.

[ksatter26]

I'm still quite confused on a couple of items not describe very well in the build manual.

(1) I've asked this question about the spar jig/tool before, but I think what I really need is some pictures as: when I position the jig/tool over either the fwd or aft spar fixtures on the fuselage ... I see nothing to "trim". Possibly it will make more sense when I actually try to position the wing, but all the descriptions say the jig/tool is provided so you don't have to keep position/mark/remove/trim ... etc. Both my fwd and aft mounts look like this ... I see no "trimming required ...

(2) more currently bothersome (because I'm ready to mount the flaperon control arms, is Chris' description of marking and trimming the flaperon spar. With the port wing/flaperon as an example, my mount looks much like Chris' picture in the manual marked at 1 5/8" ...

His description says to trim the spar but leave enough of the spar to position the AN3 bolt ??? The control horn has about a 2" tube ??? Slipping the control arm over even a trimmed spar will position the control arm an inch or two from alignment with the push/pull cable fork end. How should I interpret Chris' description???

[attachment=2]PortFlaperonSparRootMeasure.JPG[/attachment}

Progress on repositioning the radiator to the underside of the engine. I have it roughly positioned with 1"x1/8" aluminum straps (currently clamped in place for drilling the firewall. The straps utilize the existing posts on the Polini radiator ... I used rubber grommets for vibration dampening. Pictures to follow.

The Thor 303 comes with a vertical water port for the engine (containing the thermostat). To reposition it I needed to purchase an additional $100+ replacement parts ... (1) right angle water port ... which required an additional flange ... and a "highly recommended" bleeder fitting (to prevent air-lock).

The Thor 303 has a pre-threaded 8x10mm fitting in the exhaust to accept yet another $70 Polini EGT probe ... Can't just use any K type threaded probe as the barrel of the exhaust is small and requires a very short probe ... Getting expensive ...

Still haven't decided on Stewart or Oratex covering ... I'm familiar with the dacron method and there are beau-coup latex colors available. Oratex is really rather limited color-wise (more expensive and durable). Thoughts?

[LA F2 Flyer]

Okay, so for the spar jig, it looks like your spar mounting fixtures have already been trimmed, so it's not necessary. My fixtures were longer than the inner diameter of the spar and as a result had to be gently filed down so they would fit snugly into the spar. I beveled them as well, to match the shape of the inside of the spar - a nice convex curve, so to speak. Your fixtures already look like they fit. Do they fit snugly, or is there a gap? You want no gap and a relatively tight fit - no play.

As for the flaperon control arms, the control horn should actually fit INSIDE the flaperon spar. So it can be set anywhere, provided you have enough room to tap the holes for the bolt and not have it interfere with anything. I actually cut mine pretty short so as to line up the control horn with the cable. As a result my bolt ended up on the OTHER side of the flaperon mounting bracket - between the bracket and the flaperon itself. Does that make sense?

First step is to confirm that your control horn bracket fits INTO the spar and not over it. If it fits over it, Chris must have changed the design.

Keep us posed as to how it goes!

EDIT: I just saw the picture of your control horn. I guess he DID change the design. Can you show a pic from the rear of the wing showing both the end of the flaperon spar and the cable routing in front of it? I'm curious to know how far off it might be...is it possible that you fitted the cable mounting brackets on the wrong sides of the wing ribs? they are easy to swap, as I recall.

[LA F2 Flyer]

As for covering, I have no experience with anything aside from the Ortex, but I have a fair amount left over. Let me know if you'd like me to ship you a sample. It's easy to work with, and the glue is odor free and non-toxic, which allowed me to cover lot of my surfaces in the living room. Something to consider.

The cost is a fair sight more, but the time savings is a great benefit. Of course if you don't have the tools to do the legacy covering, and need to buy expensive tools to do so, those savings are no longer applicable. The nice thing about the Oratex was that all it took was a heat gun (adjustable), a few small paint brushes and and a felt pad to "massage the surfaces" when activating the glue.

[ksatter26]

Trying to respond to your comments ...Still very much confused ... HELP!

[LA F2 Flyer]

Okay, so for starters, it looks like your bolt through-fittings for the wing spar mounts were already cut and shaped, but as you say thre is a gap. Is the gap the same for the front AND the rear mounts? (Keep in mind that the rear mounts, once fitted, are semi-permanent - only the front will get a bit of a workout if you end up folding and deploying the wings regularly.

That being said, if you can fit a bent washer into the spar to close that gap for the rear spars, I would try that first. It might be tough to get it fitted once, but then it's there for the long haul. (be sure to fit both sides the same way, so you don't end up with a different incidence between the left and right wing.)

As for the front spars, it might be worth doing the same thing, but welding the washer into place at the end of the sleeve once you have it fitted where you want it.

Now, the flaperon horns post a different dilemma. They look to be a welded steel. (Is that the case?) Mine were machined aluminum and fit INSIDE the spar rather than over it. I would remove the bushing from the inside of THAT flaperon bracket, and see if the control horn sleeve fits into it comfortably. If so, I would forgo the plastic bushing on that bracket and grease the control horn sleeve...and run with it.

My flaperon horns, mounted and loose.

Hope this helps!

[LA F2 Flyer]

Also, as for the alignment (and opening the end of the control horn sleeve), it doesn't need to align perfectly. Mine doesn't - it's offset just a bit - (maybe half an inch or a little more?) It's not likely to add much resistance as a result of such a small amount.

Did you mount your cable guides to the rib yet, or are they just trial fitted at this point?

I'm not sure my suggestion of mounting the cable guide to the outside of the rib (away from the fuselage) would work (or would even help - your offset may need to be in the other direction!), since the cable would then need to be routed THROUGH the rib to feed through the guide.

As a result, it's likely not an option, but a trial fit would be able to tell you if it can work or not. Again, you may need to shift in the other direction, so it might be a moot point.

Keep us all posted!

[ksatter26]

The tubing on my control arm fits OVER the flaperon spar. So if I am able to drill out and ream the closed end I could slide the arms onto the spars and have a nice fit for aligning the arms with the push-pull forks.

However, I just heard from Chris and the design had changed. He said he'd send out a new set.

Thanks for the pictures and the great description of the wing spar roots. I have not as yet tried to trial fit the actual wings to the fuselage. I guess I'll now wait until I get the new arms from Chris. For positioning, I have a Harbor Freight engine hoist which I'll use on the outboard end and 2 nice shop-stands (also Harbor Freight) that I used to set wings on the 701 project.

Chris says that Oratex for the semi-nude F2 runs between $2.5K and $3K. Big Poker Club Tournament this Friday. I'll need to do well to cover the bird.

Thanks

[LA F2 Flyer]

I think fitting the wings will give you the same information as using the jig, since the jig is (as I recall) just a short length cut from the end of the wing spar material. It u=occurs to me that Chris may have redesigned the wing mounting points as well. Are there "doublers" that are meant to be mounted INSIDE the wing spar? As you can tell from the pic below, mine are bent steel plates riveted to the outside of the spar. If yours calls for a doubler on the inside, it would effectively close that gap.

[ksatter26]

Chris is awaiting some materials shipment in order to complete my replacement control arms. In the meantime, I'm going to "drill out" the closed (arm) end with my 0.875" bif. The flaperon spar OD is 0.875 so I'll probably have to spend a bit of time filing to get it to fit over the spar. I'll give it a try and if it works I won't need the new design from Chris.

Chris has provided nice spar root doublers. I'll figure out how to mount them when I get back to the wings.

Meanwhile, back on the Polini front. I had to purchase the EGT probe from Polini Parts because it requires a very short probe and I could not find one anywhere else ($71). I attempted to install it on the engine this morning and it appears the threads on the probe and the boss welded into the exhaust don't match. Purchasing a certified Polini part should not mean that I have to drill and tap the engine. fired off an email to Leon at Polini Parts.

Crazy mid-January weather ... 70 degrees in the shop/hangar. Glad to have it.

[LA F2 Flyer]

That is a very short probe...I take it the brass fitting is an adapter? And neither thread is correct? That's odd as well as frustrating.

Can you post pics of the spar root doublers? I'd love to see them.

[ksatter26]

The brass fitting is some sort of adapter. The short probe can screw into the center but the fitting is too large for the tapped boss on the exhaust.

The probe itself seems to be tge right Suze for the boss, but mine seems to bind within a trunk or so. I hesitate to just torque my may thru, but the Polini Parts guy says that nobody else has reported this problem. I believe the brobe us an 8x1.00mm, so I'll probably try chasing the threads.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Or perhaps try some anti-seize as a bit of lube. It may also simply be the different metals interacting.

Chasing the threads isn't a bad idea, provided you can confirm the thread matches and you don't end up cutting a new mismatched thread.

[ksatter26]

Chasing worked. Although it seems the probe description as 8x1.00mm isn't right ( unless it references the adapter). I found the bolt, boss, and probe to be M6.

Probe mounted. Awaiting female plugs for the sensor wires.

[ksatter26]

AS I posted in my build log ... I have designed and installed a set of mounts to relocate the radiator below the engine. The Polini 303 site (PoliniParts.Com). Provides a nice schematic diagram for modifying the radiator as delivered. It turns out that this requires and additional expenditure of about $170. (1) a new right angle water outlet, (2) which requires an additional fixture to raise the outlet, and (3) a "highly recommended" air bleeder fitting. I'm sure additional hoses will also be required, but I'm not there yet.

Trevails ... All of the engine/radiator hoses and fittings on the engine (as delivered) are either 16mm or 10mm (5/8" or 3/8"). This includes the straight water outlet fitting. The replacement right angle fitting, for some unknown reason, requires 22mm hose (7/8") which needs to be reduced to the standard 16mm (5/8") hose. Searched EVERYWHERE for either a straight or elbow reducer (7/8" to 5/8") and found only one source. Eldon James Mfg. only accepts orders of $100 minimum. The reducer is less than $5. I checked with EVERY ONE of their listed distributors and none had the reducer I need. Checking with PoliniParts, I was told that an additional part ($23) is listed on the conversion diagram. I checked the description and the part is defined as a simple 5/8"-5/8" coupler. They have not responded to my emails about this. In the meantime, I stumbled across a 7/8"-5/8" auto racing (Pegasus Racing) radiator hose elbow that should suffice. Due via USPS on Monday (01/23).

When I corresponded with Chris about this, he said that he simply used the straight outlet (as delivered) by inserting a 5/8" hose elbow (also available from Pegasus for use on the Chevy Camero engine). When I questioned the PoliniParts folks, I was told that using that hose resulted in the engine overheating within the 1st few hours of flight. Chris says he's had absolutely no problems with this solution. I could have saved $170+.

I'll further document this in the weeks to come.

[ksatter26]

Chris has provided me with two nicely routed "BADLAND" butt rib closeouts that get epoxied to the spar root ends 1/16" from the root ribs.

I would really like to just seal, paint (white to match my fuelage frame) and mount these into position. However, I believe the root rib faces need to be covered (I'll be using Oratex). My 1st question is how do I route the flaperon control cables AFTER the wing is covered and How do I get the cable through the butt rib that is being mounted AFTER the wing is covered?

Also it strikes me that because of the control cable routing, the wing will need to be covered with it "mounted, in-place"?

A possible frivolous question, but with the wing folded for trailering, is there any detrimental effect to the air flowing through the wing spar tube ending at the covered tip? Should this end be covered with a cap for trailering. I haven't seen them yet, but I do have a pair of plastic wing-tip plates on backorder from Chris.

Foolish questions?

[LA F2 Flyer]

Not foolish at all! Always better to ask questions than wander off in a wrong direction.

I routed the cables after I covered the wing. As I recall, it was as simple as using a bent coat hanger to find the holes I had placed in the Oratex for the cables.



As for the airflow into the spars, I made some covers for my wing brackets for trailering. I intend to support the wings at the roots as well at the tail.

I hope these help!

[ksatter26]

Thanks ... I was thinking of a PVC cap for the spar ends for trailering.

Good to know that the old coat-hanger fishing technique works. I had thought to put some light flexible cable tubing in the wing to route the cables through. I have a 6 foot length from cleaning up the computer cables mess behind my desk.

Did you cover your flaperons with Oratex? So far that's my plan, but I do have some 2.5mm sheet veneer. I thought I might seal that with marine spar varnish, cover the flaperons and paint, but this would probably add weight over the straight oratex.

Next question: I'm guessing this fixture welded into the top of the fuselage just aft of the fuel tank is a provision for a ballistic parachute?

[LA F2 Flyer]

PVC caps are a great idea...I hadn't thought of that!

Keep in mind that's it's not very far to travel between the two points where the flaperon cable goes into the wing and then comes back out. In fact, I think on the second wing I just ran the cable through and managed to push it through the hole on the other side.

I did cover the flaperons with Oratex. I'll post a pic when I get a moment.

As for that mounting point on the fuselage, it should be for the shoulder straps of the seatbelt.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Not foolish at all! Always better to ask questions than wander off in a wrong direction.

I routed the cables after I covered the wing. As I recall, it was as simple as using a bent coat hanger to find the holes I had placed in the Oratex for the cables.



As for the airflow into the spars, I made some covers for my wing brackets for trailering. I intend to support the wings at the roots as well at the tail.



wing spar covered.jpg

I hope these help!

The Wing Spar Open image looks pretty cool – so when the wing is in flight location the Badland is black with yellow lettering from the Oratex?

[LA F2 Flyer]

Here is the pic of one of my flaperons:

[ksatter26]

From the picture of the folding wing, it appears that the butt rib is mounted to the fuselage at the wing root.

My build manual shows it to be epoxied to the spar at the root 1/16" from the root rib.

I take it that either works. any comments on which might be "better and/or easier"?

[LA F2 Flyer]

Do you have the same stand-offs as I picture here? From my understanding, the gap between the ribs should be 1/16", but the butt rib should mount to the fuselage. The butt rib will end up supporting the edges of the windshield/sunroof.

[ksatter26]

Located the tabs that are needed to install the butt ribs to the fuselage. It all makes sense now. Cooler this weekend but expected temps in the 70s by Monday. Hope to get the port wing root area all completed. Still somewhat patiently awaiting my lift strut inserts.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Very nice. Not much happening here as it's been raining steadily since Thursday.

While aligning the butt ribs, the gap between the butt rib and the wing rib is important, just for the spacing for fabric. But I was more concerned about keeping the butt rip as close to vertical as I could, since it ends up supporting the windscreen, as mentioned.

One butt rib allowed me to feed the flaperon cable through the graphics cutout. I had to drill a hole in the other side to match the arc on the cables.

Chris did a great job with the graphics, and yes, they look pretty cool with the yellow fabric showing through.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

One butt rib allowed me to feed the flaperon cable through the graphics cutout. I had to drill a hole in the other side to match the arc on the cables.

Chris did a great job with the graphics, and yes, they look pretty cool with the yellow fabric showing through.

I was wondering if you had done a feed hole for both sides or not. Good to know info in not wasting time doing something that's really not needed. I am a little cautious about the small area that the entire wing is on holding up the rest of the plane! Seems rather small, but I'm sure it's plenty strong enough – just visual perception would that it's not. Then again, there's nothing but a couple of straps made out of cloth that keep a BRS from letting the entire plane drop like a rock!

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I'm curious, on the braces for the wing hinge, are rivets what's in the manual? And if yes, is there any reasons not to use a bolt and nut with Lock-Tite instead for extra strength?

Just curious.

[ksatter26]

Chris also emphasized the 1/16" gap. Nice to know it's to alow for the wing covering.

He also mentioned that situating the butt rib "a little high" helps with the positioning of the windscreen, which makes sense to me. This would make it easier for alignment in the wing folding process. It also appears that the polycarbonate is not fastened to the butt rib in any way. The rib just provides shape to the windscreen.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Todd, the doublers are riveted as well as glued with structural adhesive, and plenty strong. I think their intent is to both keep the spar from ovaling and to keep the holes for the pins from reaming themselves out over time. It looks to be a plenty strong set-up, since any forces acting on the joint are mostly lifting forces.

Kurt, the polycarbonate actually is fastened to the butt rib with small screws every four inches or so.

[LA F2 Flyer]

A pic, which may help! And CHris made an excellent point, which I had forgotten about - yes, raise it a bit so the wings clear underneath it when deploying them.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Todd, the doublers are riveted as well as glued with structural adhesive, and plenty strong. I think their intent is to both keep the spar from ovaling and to keep the holes for the pins from reaming themselves out over time. It looks to be a plenty strong set-up, since any forces acting on the joint are mostly lifting forces.

Kurt, the polycarbonate actually is fastened to the butt rib with small screws every four inches or so.

That makes sense with the adhesive. I know that adhesive's these days are typically stronger than the materials they are to hold in place. Chris covered that in his EAA Ultralight Days presentation. He showed the ribs and the testing that was done to find the best adhesive for the job. Pretty interesting. If you're an EAA member, it's worth logging into the site and watching. Thanks for the info.

Todd

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

A pic, which may help! And CHris made an excellent point, which I had forgotten about - yes, raise it a bit so the wings clear underneath it when deploying them.

Great picture, so the wing end slides under the plastic. Too low and the plastic would scrape the Oratex on the top of the wing end. Is that correct?

Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

A pic, which may help! And CHris made an excellent point, which I had forgotten about - yes, raise it a bit so the wings clear underneath it when deploying them.

Great picture, so the wing end slides under the plastic. Too low and the plastic would scrape the Oratex on the top of the wing end. Is that correct?

Todd

Correct - you want just enough clearance to have the plastic overlap the wing edge just a bit.

[ksatter26]

I'm guessing that we should sand/taper/contour the wooden cap strip ends into the spar. Mine would appear to produce a mighty "lumpy" look after covering.

Really into more "little things" ... I wrapped the engine cooling hoses with anti-shafe tape and cable tied them together and to the engine mount in several places. I fitted the control stick (will need some trimming).

Can't work the windscreen because of the holdup on the butt rib installation until I can set the wing with the lift and jury struts.

I may try trial fitting the cowl. I should be able to get a good positioning of just where it might need trimming to accommodate the shape of the Polini. The pictures seem to indicate a protrusion on the port side. I will probably drill out the mounting tabs and insert 3/16" rivnuts for pan-head screws probably with oversized (wood-bearing) washers.

I've also located a local source for the Polini preferred ELF Moto Gear Oil, 10W-40 Anti Clutch Slippage. The source is also the distributor for the alternate Amsoil 75W-90 oil. Seems to be available only by the quart ($8-10). The Polini only requires 100cc (about 4 oz.).

I hope to get the local excavator in soon to do some fill and leveling (possible culvert) so that I can get some grass started on the low section of the 700' strip.


In-pace charging of the iPad 6 mini.

[LA F2 Flyer]

I used the structural adhesive to blend any slightly raised cap strips into the spar. I didn't think shaving them down was a good idea, since it might weaken them. I'm no engineer, so I operated on a hunch. Run a little epoxy over the leading edge of the cap strip down to meet the spar.

Let me know how the rivnuts for the cowl work out. So far I've just been using an3 bolts, but it's a bit time consuming fastening eight of them!

[ksatter26]

Can't find any 10-32 rivnuts (AKA nutserts or threaded inserts) in the Greater Dallas Area. Aircraft Spruce has a regional center in Ft Worth and they too have no stock. Fastenal and Grainger have them but in quantities of 100 (~$130) ... I need 8. I did find pkgs of 10 (in aluminum no less) on Amazon with a 2 day delivery. Should be in business by Thursday.

Still much frustrated by the almost 5 week wait, with no end in sight, on my replacement lift struts. Hint: don't screw-up and need replacement components ... also nothing from Polini on the prop nut.

Running out of little things. I could cover the tail-feathers and flapperons if I had the Oratex .... but that's quite a leap.

Nothing from the excavator about work on the airstrip leveling and drainage. These guys seem to have plenty of work in the North Dallas area.

The big-wind last week blew down the windsock atop my hangar/shop. I don't care for standing on the edge of the roof making repairs.

Keeping busy ...

[ksatter26]

Chris must have prodded his supplier because my replacement lift strut inserts showed up today along with my 10-32 aluminum rivnuts.

The design of the inserts has changed. The threaded ends are now conical rather than semi-circular. Should work either way. I'll be able to get back to work on the port wing tomorrow.

Will post a picture of the new insert design tomorrow as well.

[ksatter26]

5 weeks and the replacement inserts were delivered mis-manufactured. Tapped 5/16" COARSE threads rod ends, design and supplied FINE thread. Chris replaced the order. It's been another 3 weeks and still waiting.

Found aluminum rivnuts on ebay. Also found a flexible, soft replacement motorcycle air filter, 2.5" rubber mount at Cycle World in Plano. UNI UP-4245, 2.5" ID, 4" Hight. Soft so it will compress to be able to remove the cowl for oil and coolant checks.
..

[Mountain Cat]

Good to know on the air filter cause I'll need one. The standard air box is giant sized. Chris will come thru on the replacement parts.

[Mountain Cat]

Well the engine fits like a glove. Maybe some minor cowling work to do. But not as much as I thought initally.

[Mountain Cat]

And for those using a 303, there is a bushing ring on the carb. 3 set screws and it comes off so you can use a standard Bing 54 (Rotax 503) air filter.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Well the engine fits like a glove. Maybe some minor cowling work to do. But not as much as I thought initally.

Looks great. I'm really amazed at the design of the tuned exhaust on Polini, to get every bit of power out of the engine as possible.

I found when looking at the Hirth documentation for the F-23 that the exhaust is also highly tuned. The exhaust has several parts that can be swapped around to allow several configurations. However Hirth is very clear in the documentation about lengths, 90 degree turns, and what is and is not acceptable. They state that they cannot guarantee performance for non-complying configurations as well as providing warranty service because of the use of a non-compliant setup.

[Mountain Cat]

I had a Hirth on my Kitfox. I modified the exhaust after talking to Matt Dandar. You have a little wiggle room but not much. 1 or 2 inches will not degrade the performance very little. The Polini is a new ballgame to me. A little learning curve is required. I have quite a bit of experience with the 503 but this one is a different animal in every way.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Kurt, Peer and I have been chatting. Maybe a set or two of additional eyes can help out. We're thinking that after this heat dome moves east, and we return back to normal Texas temperatures we can if you wish to do a Zoom session while you're in your shop. We can try and see if we spot anything wrong or maybe have some brainstorming ideas of what to try to get that 303 running for you. Are you up for that? And of course the offer for me to drive over and take an in person look is still open.

Todd

[KSXKflight5]

Ksatter26

I saw on your build log that you are working on the first engine start, but trying to pin down a no start issue. I can’t post to your build log, but over here in your discussion I can. I am not an expert, but am interested in trying to help. I apologize if some of the following sounds elementary, but I need a little more info to help troubleshoot.

Exact model number of your 303? (928.000.100, .101, .110, .111, .120, or .121)

I know the differences are subtle, but want to confirm.

Explain the start process you have used (ie primed 3 times and verified fuel at carb, choke was on/off, electric start held down for x seconds, absolutely no attempt to fire off noted….. any details help.

Process on how you verified that there is no spark.

I will do some research and much thinking on your notes. I don’t promise anything, but I don’t charge for my time either.
I love my 303!

Lane

[ksatter26]

For some reason I've been posting most of my activites and comments in my Build Log when rightfully much of what Ive posted probably belongs here in the Discussion section ...

I recently posted that I was testing the use of "paper tape " for demarcating glue lines for the Oratex. While the paper tape kinda works , it has turned out to be a bear to remove as it is a little too porous and does not do extremely well in keeping the glue from seeping thru too the fabric. I've just come in from a length session of removing the tape from the vertical stabilizer. Much too much effort for the results.

I resorted to the paper tape experiment because for some reason when placing an order for Oratex covering materials for the half-naked F-3. The folks in Anchorage pretty much followed the fabric nesting diagram that Chris has produced (which happens to be for the full cover). As a result I got about a third more of the expensive fabric and glue than I require (no returns accepted).

Included was a roll of the silicon release paper ... so for, no need for the stuff. Also, I received 250 ml of Orates wax, which I'm not sure I'll need.

What I did NOT receive, and would be very useful, is any quantity of the glue remover. When I asked about this I was told there are stringent restrictions on shipping the remover (much like the Oratex paints).

NO tapes were included. Which is why I tried the paper tape solution for demarcating glue lines. This i believe is the most significant omission. Next, I will try a painter's "frog tape" ... water resistant.

I did place an order for 2 rolls of 20mm white Oratrim tape whiich I will use to accent the transition from wing leading edge blue to wing chord red. (Two 50' rolls $144 including shipping.)

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Great detailed information Kurt.

On a side note, if you find you've posted in the wrong place, just send me an email of the title, which forum it's in and which forum you want it in. I can move single messages or entire threads, not a problem.

Happy Thanksgiving

Todd