Help in assembly

[CraigDowning]

Hi Everyone.
Recently picked up my F2 kit and I am looking for advice and solutions from someone who has built one. Is there anyone out there that is willing to discuss with me? I am currently in Michigan and I am finding this to be a challenge.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Hi Craig - go ahead and post exactly what you are having problems with, and I'm sure we can give advice or help you find a solution. Are you currently stumped on anything in particular?

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Hi Craig - go ahead and post exactly what you are having problems with, and I'm sure we can give advice or help you find a solution. Are you currently stumped on anything in particular?

Most certainly Craig, ask questions. I've not had the pleasure(?) of building my kit yet. I'm still waiting for Chris to do the build and for me to get my hands on it. There are several builders here that have helped each other with questions/issues. Also, the only stupid question is the one not asked - this is especially true when your life is going to depend on it. If you have any doubt about how to or how you've assembled something, please post and let the guys that have been there give you advice. Also, the forum can have pictures in your post, and they are most helpful. To add pictures to your post, scroll to the bottom of your reply message. If you're in the full editor, you'll see an "Attachments" tab. Click on it. Click on the "Add files" button. Upload the picture (.tif, .gif, .jpg and others are accepted). You can either leave the picture as an attachment, or if you click on the "Place inline" button, the picture will appear in your post. Let me know if you have any issues with including pictures. Looking forward to hearing about your build. Also, would you like to have a build forum? This is a separate forum where you can document your build. Here's the URL: viewforum.php?f=19 This is not required, but is a nice-centralized location for builders. If you'd like this, please let me know and I'll get it set up for you.

Thanks,
Todd

[CraigDowning]

The very first thing is the fact that I have never built an ultra lite aircraft. I believe I have the technical background as I am a journeyman tool and die maker and a Master Electrician. At the moment I am finding that I do not have the correct parts in some cases and I am missing some in other cases. Chris has been good about sending parts that are missing but not having a background in aircraft makes it more difficult. I am setting up the wings for painting at the moment . Before paint I am installing the trailing edges on the wings and flaperons. My question is how to attach the trailing edges. I am provided short rivets to attach the trailing edges to the wooden spars and also the foam on the flaperons. It seems to me that wood screws would be a better idea since the spars are wood. I am not sure how to attach the trailing edges to the foam on the flaperons , maybe glue as the fabric would hold the edges as well. Any ideas?

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Hey Craig, I've moved the topic over to this forum "Badland F1 - F5 Talk" since it's grown past your original introduction. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

Hey Craig. As I recall i used industrial adhesive to afix the trailing edge to the foam of the flaperons. There should be a suggestion in the build manual as to what type of adhesive to use, as I recall.

As for the trailing edges of the wings I honestly cant recall. I am out of town at the moment but will check when I get home tomorrow sometime.

[LA F2 Flyer]

Actually, for the wing trailing edges I do recall using rivets. You should have a bag of small washer "backers" to place on the backside of the rivets to keep them from sinking into the wood.

I also took some comfort in the idea that the covering material would aid in securing the trailing edge in place. If it comes off after covering the wing you've got bigger problems! Haha

[13brv3]

I've wondered how good the assembly manual is. I picked up a Ridge Runner project a few years ago, and the manual was horrid. I have a Kitfox 4 project now, and the manual is better, but still not a substitute for actual plans. I asked Chris for the manual about a month ago, and he said he's revising it, and would send me a copy when it was done.

You'd hope the manual is detailed enough to allow a first time builder to get by with a minimum of questions, but I'd bet that's the exception and not the rule. Writing manuals is tedious, and often the people who would be writing it are far removed from "first time builders", so they've lost perspective of what a first time builder needs to know.

Van's had an interesting philosophy about manuals. You start with the tail, and that section of the manual was very detailed. When you moved to the wings, they skipped the details for skills you learned while building the tail, and only detailed the new skills. By the time the fuselage rolled around, the manual basically just said "you know what to do by now".

The Sonex on the other hand has no manual at all. It's just a very good set of drawings, and a flow chart that's sort of an upside down tree. You start at any of the bottom boxes, and work your way up until it intersects with another branch. At that point you can't proceed until you've finished the other branch. You can alternate working on wing, tail, fuselage, etc if you want to. That method seems sort of alien, but it works.

Rusty

[LA F2 Flyer]

Rusty (and Craig), were you given a copy of the current manual in the meantime?

[13brv3]

Rusty (and Craig), were you given a copy of the current manual in the meantime?

No, but I didn't really press the issue. Manuals always seem to be the last part that gets finished. I was looking into the Aeropup last year as well, and asked for a manual. The reply I got was almost exactly the same.

[13brv3]

Craig,

Do you have a local EAA chapter you could join? There are usually people with experience that can help, even hands on if needed. That might be the best way to get moving in the right direction.

Rusty

[CraigDowning]

I did not request a manual ahead of time. I felt that there would be updates to it as needed. I am finding that there has been updates to the aircraft but not the manual.

[LA F2 Flyer]

I have a scanned copy of a past draft of the manual if you think it might be useful. I think it's around 150 pages or so.

[CraigDowning]

I have downloaded pictures of the Flaperon control pivot which is different from the one in the manual. In the manual it shows the flaperon cables being held in place with a lock nut on either side of the pivot. On the updated version I do not have threads on the cable for a lock nut nor do I have lock nuts provided. Any thoughts? I also sent a pic of the parts for the throttle. The center hole is larger possibly for a bushing but the throttle is completely different from the one in the manual. Anyone else run into this?

[CraigDowning]

https://www.badland103forum.org/phphttp ... ew&id=1300

[LA F2 Flyer]

Does the end of the cable housing unthread, back where the smooth pieces of aluminum are? Here is a pic of mine. For yours it looks like the bracket should sit in the "indented" portion of the cable housing.

ControlStickComp.jpg

I would see if you can unthread the end of the cable sheathing behind the rubber boot. Otherwise, perhaps there are meant to be snap rings to hold it in place?

[LA F2 Flyer]

Odd - my pic isn't uploading. Stand by as I try to sort this out.

[LA F2 Flyer]

As for the throttle, it looks like the round knurled knob is the grip itself. The triangular piece is the pivot point and should allow you to lock or tension the throttle. Do any of the bolts fit snuggly through the center hole? Or does the triangular piece have a thinner part that fits into the hole like a sleeve?

[Badland1]

Sorry for not attached the update Craig. Pretty straight forward. The pinned bulkhead cable replaces the threaded bulkhead. An3 bolts secure it in place.

[Badland1]

Throttle is new and more simple. I like a bend at the top.

Throttle CAD.JPG (8.63 KiB) Viewed 53045 times

[Badland1]

I did not request a manual ahead of time. I felt that there would be updates to it as needed. I am finding that there has been updates to the aircraft but not the manual.

Please advise of other updates are you finding.

[Badland1]

I've wondered how good the assembly manual is. I picked up a Ridge Runner project a few years ago, and the manual was horrid. I have a Kitfox 4 project now, and the manual is better, but still not a substitute for actual plans. I asked Chris for the manual about a month ago, and he said he's revising it, and would send me a copy when it was done.

You'd hope the manual is detailed enough to allow a first time builder to get by with a minimum of questions, but I'd bet that's the exception and not the rule. Writing manuals is tedious, and often the people who would be writing it are far removed from "first time builders", so they've lost perspective of what a first time builder needs to know.

Van's had an interesting philosophy about manuals. You start with the tail, and that section of the manual was very detailed. When you moved to the wings, they skipped the details for skills you learned while building the tail, and only detailed the new skills. By the time the fuselage rolled around, the manual basically just said "you know what to do by now".

The Sonex on the other hand has no manual at all. It's just a very good set of drawings, and a flow chart that's sort of an upside down tree. You start at any of the bottom boxes, and work your way up until it intersects with another branch. At that point you can't proceed until you've finished the other branch. You can alternate working on wing, tail, fuselage, etc if you want to. That method seems sort of alien, but it works.

Rusty

There have been multiple builders complete their build without a single technical question. I take pride in the manual I've written. I've had several people help with editing, hopefully making it more understandable. Everyone has a different way they learn. I've written the manual the way I learn, pictures and real talk. My hope is builders use my examples, think outside of the box, and build their Badland the way they envision it. I am by NO means the end all be all when it comes to the best way to build.
-Chris

[Badland1]

The very first thing is the fact that I have never built an ultra lite aircraft. I believe I have the technical background as I am a journeyman tool and die maker and a Master Electrician. At the moment I am finding that I do not have the correct parts in some cases and I am missing some in other cases. Chris has been good about sending parts that are missing but not having a background in aircraft makes it more difficult. I am setting up the wings for painting at the moment . Before paint I am installing the trailing edges on the wings and flaperons. My question is how to attach the trailing edges. I am provided short rivets to attach the trailing edges to the wooden spars and also the foam on the flaperons. It seems to me that wood screws would be a better idea since the spars are wood. I am not sure how to attach the trailing edges to the foam on the flaperons , maybe glue as the fabric would hold the edges as well. Any ideas?

The flaperons do not require any mechanical fastening to the foam, only adhesive and fabric.

Your required tool list on page 16 advises which epoxy adhesive to use (Hysol Loctite EA9460, or 9460)

Your skills as a journeyman tool and die maker and master electrician are 100% sufficient. Use your experience to relate and always use common sense. YOU GOT THIS Craig!!

Quote from the manual regarding trailing edge rivets; (If you believe wood screws are a better attachment method, use that method)

1. Drill #30 holes approximately ¼” deep in the exact center of all of the ribs, both top and bottom. Drill and Cleco the trailing in place as you go along. Make sure your trailing edge is pushed all the way in to the wing rib and is straight down the wing. Align the hole with the bend line of the trailing edge you flattened earlier, Cleco in place and check for true. If you’ve chosen to trim the trailing edge, the hole will be closer the edge. Be cautious to use proper rivet edge distance.


2. When you’re satisfied with the fitment and the holes, remove and clean the trailing edge with acetone to prepare it for adhesive. Apply a high quality epoxy adhesive to each section of the trailing edge that makes contact with the wing rib.

3. Reinstall using the supplied BSP-41 Aluminum rivets, secure it, then clean up with acetone.

[LA F2 Flyer]

"There have been multiple builders complete their build without a single technical question."

Sadly, I don't think I was one of them, but Chris was great at answering any questions I had, stupid or otherwise.

I think the biggest part for me was being afraid to start...once I crossed that hurdle, it got a lot easier to look at the parts and figure out how they fit together, with few exceptions.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I think Terry is one of the few that could build without questions - then again, Terry has built many planes, so experience really helps! Since I'm absolutely new at this - expect a flood of questions from me guys!

Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

Bring it, Todd! We'll be braced and ready! haha

[13brv3]

There have been multiple builders complete their build without a single technical question. I take pride in the manual I've written. I've had several people help with editing, hopefully making it more understandable. Everyone has a different way they learn. I've written the manual the way I learn, pictures and real talk. My hope is builders use my examples, think outside of the box, and build their Badland the way they envision it. I am by NO means the end all be all when it comes to the best way to build.
-Chris

Having seen the manual now, I have to say it appears to be excellent! There are lots of high res color pictures, which is at least 1000X better than any of the assembly manuals I've seen. I'll look forward to trying the manual out.

Rusty

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

There have been multiple builders complete their build without a single technical question. I take pride in the manual I've written. I've had several people help with editing, hopefully making it more understandable. Everyone has a different way they learn. I've written the manual the way I learn, pictures and real talk. My hope is builders use my examples, think outside of the box, and build their Badland the way they envision it. I am by NO means the end all be all when it comes to the best way to build.
-Chris

Having seen the manual now, I have to say it appears to be excellent! There are lots of high res color pictures, which is at least 1000X better than any of the assembly manuals I've seen. I'll look forward to trying the manual out.

Rusty

I'm really terrible at being able to use manuals. I'm a total hands on, show me type of learner. I'm really surprised I wasn't born in Missouri, you know, the Show Me State! I've always had a hard time understanding someone else's written work. I got to find out I'm not alone when at one employer I worked for, we had a documentation expert. I have to laugh at that last word, because no one in the company could understand his manuals. This is one of the reasons I started the forum - I need LOTS OF HELP!

Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

"This is one of the reasons I started the forum - I need LOTS OF HELP! "

Now that is planning ahead! haha

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Hahaha, and you being second in command here, you know me plenty well enough that it's true. I have trouble following a 1 line operator's manual!
It also seems to have worked. I think we have more pictures and videos than any other Badland social media site. My former CFI (many years ago) always laughed, because we would go over something in the lesson plan, and I'd be "I don't get it". We'd get in the Cessna, and he'd show me once, and it would all click. More than that, I could expand on what I had learned (seen). My initial reading comprehension just sucks.

[13brv3]

I'm really terrible at being able to use manuals.

I have a hard time doing what I'm told, but that's a whole different issue
Rusty

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I'm really terrible at being able to use manuals.

I have a hard time doing what I'm told, but that's a whole different issue
Rusty

[LA F2 Flyer]

I stand in solidarity with Rusty.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I stand in solidarity with Rusty.

Hear hear! And isn't three or more a coalition?