What's the big deal with the F-5?

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

The F-5 Fujita is the flagship of the Badland Aircraft line of ultralights. So what does this mean? Each Badland model differs in wing size, landing gear, brake type, and other features. Just like with automobiles Badland Aircraft offers upgrades to any model. Most of these upgrades are higher quality and better performance changes. There is one exception which is a major improvement. The F-5 Fujita has a very unique frame. The frame is titanium. So what's so great about titanium? Titanium is not only stronger than steal, it has another desirable trait especially for ultralights. This trait is the super lightweight of titanium. The F-5 Fujita frame only weighs in at 26 pounds. If I remember correctly this is around 16+ pounds lighter than the F-1 through F-4 frame. Now 16+ pounds doesn't sound like much, but to aircraft, especially ultralights, 16+ pounds is an excellent weight savings. This frame does come at a cost. Titanium isn't inexpensive. For some (like me), it's well worth it. I recommend doing research and then deciding on what you want your Badland Aircraft to do, and select the model that fits your needs and desires in ultralight flight.

[mrpilotron]

Do you know if they have actually built an F-5 yet? I was under the impression that it was a theoretical concept.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Yes Chris has built and delivered I think one but possibly two. I'm on the list and hoping he gets to my kit build soon. I'm looking forward to the weight savings the titanium will bring. Expensive - Yes, but hey I can't take my retirement with me so I might as well enjoy it - right? I know Chris has ordered or is ordering a CNC machine to do precision cutting for both this steal as well as titanium frame parts. Chris is also a craftsman (and I'm not sure but I think) master welder. I do know he has experience with welding both materials. Can you imagine lifting the frame (no wings of course) of an airplane with one arm? Yes, ultralight, but really -titanium puts that in the true sense of the word.

[mrpilotron]

Chris mentioned last week when I visited the factory that he would be using CNC in the very near future to do the cuts. He already has the ribs and most of the brackets cut by CNC. I saw what a fantastic benefit this is when I visited the Rans factory in December. The CNC notched tubes fit together perfectly after just a quick brush with a wire wheel to clean up the plasma-cut edges. As a welder myself with a lot of experience notching tubes, I was really impressed with how much labor this can save. It also makes the final product accuracy much easier to achieve.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

That is fantastic news. I try and stay out of Chris's hair in bugging him of where I'm at on the kit build list. I figure the less I bug him, the more time he has to spend building the kits in front of mine. Thank you though for passing on the info on the CNC equipment. The perfect fitting parts adds strength and speed to build. Nothing you don't know since it sounds like you've got experience in metal work.

[Terry Croup aka Baron Von]

The F1 through F4 fuselage weighs about 42 pounds, then does anyone know how much the wings weigh without fabric or paint?

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Terry the weight may vary a bit because the different versions come with different lengths of wings. I'll see if I can get a hold of Chris to give a general idea of what they come in at and get back to you.

Todd

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Got you an answer Terry. I must have gotten lucky and caught Chris at his keyboard -

Bare wing weighs about 33lbs.

Thank you,

Chris Deuel
Badland Aircraft
507-218-8232

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

My kit has been started!

viewtopic.php?t=448

Todd

[mrpilotron]

I make assumptions that the material supply challenges are finally unclogged! I'm going to be at his shop in 2 weeks so I'll probably get to check out the progress.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I make assumptions that the material supply challenges are finally unclogged! I'm going to be at his shop in 2 weeks so I'll probably get to check out the progress.

Actually, he's still having a lot of difficulty getting the Titanium. However, I've been on the list for a long time. We discussed the issue a few weeks ago. He agreed, it's time to get this kit built, whatever it takes. It still may be some time before the full kit is ready, but it's moving forward, so I'm thrilled about that. And yes, please check it out. Knowing Mr. Perfection (Chris - though we've never met face to face), I know he's going to be picky about every little thing. That's certainly a benefit when it comes to choosing Chris to build a plane.

Thanks,
Todd

[Ethylene]

Greetings,

As I read the progress reports on the titanium F-5 kit, I am wondering if the light weight fuse frame will possibly be offered separately at a future point in time.

Thanks

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Greetings,

As I read the progress reports on the titanium F-5 kit, I am wondering if the light weight fuse frame will possibly be offered separately at a future point in time.

Thanks

I can answer that for you, the answer is Yes. Chris is known for his flexibility to swap parts to meet the customer's needs/wants. If something you want isn't listed, it's only because the options are wide open, and you'll need to speak with Chris to find out the cost. I will warn you in advance, though, the Titanium is outrageously expensive because of the Russia/Ukraine war. Ukraine has one of the largest supplies of Titanium ore, I believe they are second only to China. Titanium is expensive and difficult to source. A wise man wouldn't do what I'm doing, but I'm also spoiling myself. Being retired, I'm doing what I want, not necessarily what's smart. There are only two other F5's build or partly built at this time. From what I understand, neither are flying. This opens another possibility, that Chris may contact either of those two owners and see if they wish to sell their builds. This could save you a lot of money. The F1~F4 have an advantage over the F5. Because they are more the norm for an Ultralight, their value will most likely be higher than for the F5. The F5's Titanium really doesn't increase its value. Think of it like the Beechcraft Starship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Starship) - it was a badass aircraft, but way too expensive for what it was. You only buy something like this because you want it, and nothing more.

Todd

[Ethylene]

Hi Todd,

As the owner, and basically the builder of a very nice Avid Champion - which I understand to be the prototype for the Foxlite / Belite / Badlands 103 . . . an absolutely perfect little airplane, I was hoping that in the future . . . Perhaps - should the stars align, the war in Ukraine come to an end, and some semblance of normalcy emerge - that Badlands may become in at least some part to 103 what Alaska Airframes is with two and three seaters.

By my calculations, an F5 titanium fuselage would weigh about 13 lb less than the fuselage that I currently enjoy flying in. Since there's little hope of having the powers that be provide weight exemptions for safety and performance items, my ride is rather Spartan.

Having an additional 13 lb for niceties such as sound insulation, better plexiglass, better seats, all weather enclosures, an actual baggage compartment, and an instrument or two might perhaps . . . in the overhaul scheme of things be worth the rather steep price (not that it's unwarranted) over the chromoly cage.

I rather value my own continued existence, and my chances of survival inside of a metal cage, as opposed to outside of one.

You really shouldn't look at me as being a marketing expert. 'Cause witb an IQ over 10 i'm overqualified, but I would hope that a lot of people would feel the same way. I realize that you are not a decision maker in this. But perhaps in putting my thoughts out there on the internet, those who are in a position to decide might consider what I am saying.

Within the realm of Part 103 flight, the last thing on Earth I would want to do is remove an aircraft from the skies. So the idea of buying somebody's partially completed project is anathema. We need to fill the skies with 103s . . ..

But, maybe, time for a major, I could swap the cage . . ..

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Hi Todd,

As the owner, and basically the builder of a very nice Avid Champion - which I understand to be the prototype for the Foxlite / Belite / Badlands 103 . . . an absolutely perfect little airplane, I was hoping that in the future . . . Perhaps - should the stars align, the war in Ukraine come to an end, and some semblance of normalcy emerge - that Badlands may become in at least some part to 103 what Alaska Airframes is with two and three seaters.

Excellent, experience is a sure plus. I say this because though I have built many things in my life, I've never built an airplane, at least not a full size one that's going to carry me. Your Avid Champion sounds like an excellent aircraft. I say this this based on the builds of the FoxLite / Belite / and of course the Badlands Aircraft. I totally agree, this design and especially the Badlands F series are perfect little airplanes. You hit the nail on the head concerning my feelings (very similar to yours) that the Badlands may become a large part to 103 like Alaska Airframes is with their designs. In fact that is the exact reason I went with the F5 and started this forum. I met Peer (another forum founding member) on Homebuilt Aircraft. He was building his F2~F3 (he's got some modifications/updates on it to be more than a flat F2). We and the forums goal is to help as many potential ultralight pilots with their choice of plane, of course with some encouragement towards the Badlands aircraft.

By my calculations, an F5 titanium fuselage would weigh about 13 lb less than the fuselage that I currently enjoy flying in. Since there's little hope of having the powers that be provide weight exemptions for safety and performance items, my ride is rather Spartan.

Having an additional 13 lb for niceties such as sound insulation, better plexiglass, better seats, all weather enclosures, an actual baggage compartment, and an instrument or two might perhaps . . . in the overhaul scheme of things be worth the rather steep price (not that it's unwarranted) over the chromoly cage.

You're calculation is interestingly close to a number Chris came up with. Chris has completed half of the fuselage of my F5, and the guys have calculated that my F5 will be 11Lbs lighter than the F1~F4 versions. WIth that, you may be really close with your 13 Lb estimate. I'm not sure if this includes the use of the carbon fiber ribs in the wings over the wooden ribs for my F5. I'm hoping it does not, thus gaining me a few extra pounds there as well. My goal (mission - which some tell me I'm stupid to even think about) is to fly from California to Florida in my F5. To do that, I'm going to need that extra for exactly what you mentioned, insulation, doors, instruments, and more. I plan to stop at every muni that has an EAA chapter and visit if possible. I want to show what today's technology in ultralights can do. For such a flight, I also want to find the lightest weight autopilot I can. This I hope helps with the performance. A steady hand is great, an autopilot is better! I'm also planing on using the Hirth F23 engine. This boxer 2 cylinder 2 stroke has an excellent reputation for reliability. The problem is that being a 2 cylinder 2 stroke, the fuel consumption is a bit high. To offset this, I'm looking at using Smart Carb 2 carburetors. These carbs promise 10% higher fuel efficiency than standard carbs, as well as 30% higher fuel efficiency. Many have used them on 2-stroke dirt bikes and PPG's are starting to use them. They are rather expensive (about $800.00), and I'll need 2! Ouch! One other feature I love about them, they auto adjust for altitude and air temperature. In the end, I'm hoping to build a flagship Badland Fujita F5 and promote Badland aircraft. I also plan on having a recovery chute. Peer found one that's actually perfect for ultralights, weighing in at 11 Lbs. Since the FAA gives us 25 Lbs for an 11 Lbs chute, that adds in an additional 14 Lbs of allowance over the 254 Lbs. Of course, we still don't gain anything on our gross weight of 550 Lbs. Overall though, that's 25 extra Lbs to play with having the titanium and recovery chute.

I'm also looking into flying into Johnson's Creek, and at this time I believe that would be the first ever ultralight to fly in (and hopefully) out of Johnson's Creek. As you point out, to me at least, the steep price is not unwarranted for those two flights.

Does that sound more promising for your plans for an F5? I hope so. I think we can do some great things with the F5's. The only thing is, I wish the FAA would give us a little more fuel. I doubt though we'll see any improvements from the FAA. In fact, I'm a realist and think we'd see things get tighter before allowing us a little more flexibility.

I rather value my own continued existence, and my chances of survival inside of a metal cage, as opposed to outside of one.

Right there with you!

You really shouldn't look at me as being a marketing expert. 'Cause witb an IQ over 10 i'm overqualified, but I would hope that a lot of people would feel the same way. I realize that you are not a decision maker in this. But perhaps in putting my thoughts out there on the internet, those who are in a position to decide might consider what I am saying.

Agreed, Best way to go about it, finding what other people think, adding it all up, and then making your own choices. You're dead on right.

Within the realm of Part 103 flight, the last thing on Earth I would want to do is remove an aircraft from the skies. So the idea of buying somebody's partially completed project is anathema. We need to fill the skies with 103s . . ..

But, maybe, time for a major, I could swap the cage . . ..

Very true. I just hate going to the local muni and seeing planes with dust all over them, that haven't seen flight in years. I hate to think about two absolute great titanium F5's sitting in hangers or garages, and neither has left the ground. Swapping the cage is certainly a possibility!

Todd