Badland Part 103 Pilots and Builders Forum

Since (nearly) completing my F-3 build, I've been mulling (or perhaps fretting is a better term) over a way to transport my little folding wing beauty. After all, the folding wings are the reason I settled on a Badland over most other options. Storage space is at a premium, and hangar space is not a viable option.

As I saw it, there were a multitude of possibilities. A fully enclosed trailer - pricey and difficult to store without paying a monthly fee.

Design and build my own - a fair option, but I'm not confident in my skills enough to source materials and build a trailer from scratch.

Convert an existing trailer - this turned out to be the most plausible option for me, considering space and cost.

I decided on a boat trailer, since the tapered design would take up a little less space in my already crowded driveway than a flatbed trailer would. I found a decent one within an hour from me, and the seller was asking $750. It had bunk rollers on it, which I sold back to him for $200. I towed the new trailer home and stared at it, plotting my next move.
The trailer was (oddly, at least to me) bolted together using long u-bolts. The cross-members hung about six inches below the main frame. I needed them to be flush with the top of the frame, so I removed them, shortened them, and have so far tack welded them in. I am lacking in welding skills, having done very little of it in my life, so I will likely have a friend who welds professionally complete the task.
The next step from there will be to use motorcycle ramps to load and transport the plane. I bought six of them, four as actual runners on the trailer, and two more to use for their intended purpose - loading ramps.


I am still brainstorming how to support the tail in an effort to level the plane for freeway towing. I want the wings as close to parallel to the airflow as possible. I am thinking an RV scissor jack, welded to the rear cross-member of the trailer with a nice cushioned plate to rest the rear landing gear spring on (where it's bolted to the fuselage). I would love some thoughts and feedback, including opinions on my welds. Not how ugly they might be (I know they're ugly) but as to whether they look strong enough.
(More pictures coming soon. Working remote.)

A welder ... I'm impressed. I converted an ancient 16'er that I decided would work only after trailering it to my shop from 50 miles north. I figured it it could make that trip, the 30 mile round-trip to the testing site (Caddo Mills Airport) with a UL load would not be a problem. I left the boat wench on y conversion and everything was bolted together. The build is documented elsewhere on the site.

Looks good.

I would hardly call myself a welder, but I'll take your compliment (which I appreciate) as the first vote for "that weld will hold".
Haha. I'm curious to hear what some actual welders would say, assuming we have some on this forum.

I had seen your trailer build here...it was a push in the boat trailer direction for me.

I plan on utilizing the winch on mine as well.

The U-Bolts give you a lot of freedom to move the axle to get the tongue weight where you need it. Honestly, the trailer probably outweighs your completed aircraft.

I found this picture a while ago.
I like that the trailer has a front panel to take some of the wind blast off the airplane. I always wonder how the wings handle all the buffeting going on at highway speeds. You could even hinge the wind guard panel so the front of it lays down when you have to store your trailer. If you happen to be a retired bank robber, then you can do the whole thing in polished aluminum diamond plate like this guy did.

I am not sure about nose forward or tail forward for towing either.

I looked into enclosed trailers but the empty weight of a 20 to 22 footer is almost 4000 pounds. That's a lot of weight to move around 250 pounds of airplane. They all have tandem axles on top of that, and will be huge problem to store it too.

Your solution is better for sure. And since you have exposed tubing at your tail(unless I am wrong) you can fabricate a cradle to hold your tail there. Maybe go to a marine trailer parts store or amazon and look at all the rubber/urethane rollers and cushions they sell. Get something with a profile to act as saddle for the tubing out back.

Maybe cut a plywood "Crutch" and put some old garden hose to protect your paint. They make nylon soft-ties for transporting motorcycles where there is no metal hook connected to your bike but instead a nylon webbing with loops at both ends. Again, no damage to your paint or tubing.

Its a boat trailer after all!!!

I've towed Kitfoxes and my SkyRaider all over the east on a Kitfox trailer (just like you are building) and a 16' flatbed with no damage. Key is proper tiedowns. Towed both nose front and nose rearward. I think I prefer nose rearward due to easier loading and unloading. I load with the wings open (lighter tail) and then fold them after on the trailer. It can be done folded, but the dang tail is heavy. A tail support is a must or you will bend the tail spring.

I figured a good rope and drive fast. That'll keep the plane in the air like a kite. Should work great, just have to avoid under passes and power lines.

Badland-F5 Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:19 am I figured a good rope and drive fast. That'll keep the plane in the air like a kite. Should work great, just have to avoid under passes and power lines.

Just fly the bird to wherever you are going. And maybe tow the trailer?

I am looking to tow nose front, just to prevent any possible oscillation of the tail control surfaces. Nose rearward would certainly be easier for loading, but the idea of having the tail into the wind makes me (possibly unnecessarily) nervous.

My intent is to put a wide roller (12" or so) in the center of the aft crossmember, since the ramps may not allow the tail to clear the back of the trailer when rolling the plane all the way forward (but I'll be able to determine this once the ramps are installed and I test this).

I'd like to make it as easy as possible to lift the tail if I am by myself, so a 24" scissor jack should do the trick, I think. I'll need to fabricate some form of pad on the jack that will be gentle on the tail spring.

I'll lift the tail while the plane is still unstrapped from the trailer but the winch is still attached (since the back of the plane will still be hanging off). This will allow it to roll to its final position for trailering, THEN strap the nose and tail down.

How is everyone strapping the plane down? The rear should be easy enough, since my airframe is exposed. I am guessing for the front it's best to cross-strap from the main gear legs both forward and aft? Let me know!

The only downside I can think of so far is cranking the jack to lift the tail, but if I am going flying, a little patience will go a long way throughout the whole process. I don't intend to be in a hurry, but rather enjoy the moment, whether it be set-up or actually flying.

Or I can follow Todd's lead, and let the plane fly like a kite behind the truck. I'll need to check the route for powerlines first, of course! LOL

So I wonder about the stress on the rear spar mounts at the fuselage as I drive down a bumpy country road. I would think the lever moment of the folded wing would do a number on that area as the wing tries to flop up and down. Is all the weight of the folded wing still transferred down to the lower strut mount when folded? I ask now, because I still have not test mounted my wings so I really know nothing at this point.

I have seen some folding wing aircraft with a diagonal support from one of the lift strut brackets on the wing to some fixture below on the trailer.

This is an Australian plane called a Sky Fox. The struts fold back as usual, but this guy added a temporary strut that goes from the leading edge spar mount to the location below where the two lift struts meet to the fuselage. Would really lighten the loads of the wing trying to twist/pivot on a bumpy drive.

You could use a piece of undersized 2 1/2 inch tubing sized to fit inside the Badland spar as a means to connect the temporary strut to your wing leading edge tube without risking any damage to the original holes drilled for your front mounting bolts.

Slide in a 12 inch piece of the undersized tubing and then add a clevis pin to lock it in for the trip. No stress point focused only at the front spar bolt hole location. The load would be spread out over the length of the 12 inch tube. Your travel strut would then attach to the inserted tube, maybe using a control rod end to allow it to pivot for alignment/storage.

Anybody recall the drive to Truman MN to pick up their kit? The frost heaves and potholes on some of the roads about knocked out half my teeth!

Chris had a pothole destroy a wheel on his big company truck.

I plan to travel a lot with my plane. How else am I gonna fly with you guys????? (its only a 5 gallon tank )

Well, I am off to my hangar to get some work done. Starting my rust removal process for getting my parts in primer. Lots of rain in the forecast.

I actually welded up brackets for both the root and near the tip of the wing. I figure that should be plenty of support. I was hoping to find a picture of the brackets I built for the rear supports, but don't seem to have any on my work computer. For the root I used the existing bolt holes on the spar (to deploy the wing), and used an existing mount above the rear landing gear mounting point. No pics of the lower mount either, but for the upper mount I also created a wind block to keep the spar from filling with compressed air while cruising down the highway.

I like those you made, support and sealing of the spar tube. 2 for 1!

You are going to have a great setup for sure. I am kind of envious of how close you are to some wide open flying spots. Its nothing but pine trees everywhere here.

A big problem here is a critter called a Mud Wasp, Dirt Dauber, whatever. They love to build a nest inside of anything you own. I already have plastic bags stuffed into my wing tubing right now as the little rats are gonna get active once spring hits. They build a nest out of red dirt that is almost like concrete when completed. They can get into a hangar from the smallest opening too.

I did a carb rebuild on a Harley and they had built a big nest inside the Vee of the two cylinders behind the carb boot. Probably was there 10 years, who knows. Never saw it until then. It can be a real problem with engine cooling too if they block enough fins as they did on my bike.

There are NTSB crash investigations where the culprit was blocked PITOT tubes from the mud. Pilot was fooled with bad airspeed data. They documented that the critters can start to build a nest within 6 hours of a plane being parked on the ramp.

I just love living in Mississippi! Dirt daubers, feral hogs digging up your grass strip and don't forget hurricanes, a pilots dream !!!

A few Wal-Mart rubber snakes laid around on the airframe keep rats, mice and birds away. A cheap repellant. Be sure to remove before flying. You don't want one falling out in your lap during a gust of wind. Don't ask how I know!

I guess I should count my blessings that there is plenty of open terrain not too far away, relatively speaking.

Ah yes, the lovely mud dauber (as I've heard them called in these parts). I'm not sure I have any locally, but I do worry about any insects nesting in the airframe somewhere. Funny thing - I recently fired up the plane and ran it up, then noticed a swarm of wasps around me. It turns out they had built a nest under the eaves of the garage and the prop wash really pissed them off. I took care of that nest very quickly.

I can't imagine how loud I might scream if I was flying and a rubber snake fell into my lap. haha

My big issue in the garage used to be crickets, but since I've had a rather large alligator lizard move in, the cricket situation has been brought under control.

Here he is standing guard.

Put him to work! Train him to build aircraft! If he's gonna eat, make him work.

Bruce_L wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:52 pm A big problem here is a critter called a Mud Wasp, Dirt Dauber, whatever. They love to build a nest inside of anything you own.

I just love living in Mississippi! Dirt daubers, feral hogs digging up your grass strip and don't forget hurricanes, a pilots dream !!!

Yep. Out in California we called them mud daubers. They are similar to the mud wasps here in Texas. A royal pain. The only good about their nests is that when you finally break is loose, it normally will break into a couple of large chunks.

Dirt (mud) daubers, feral hogs, that'll be nothing compared to the first time I go out to my F5 in Florida and find a Boa Constrictor sitting in the cockpit!

I found this design a few weeks ago and shared it with Peer. I should have also shared it here....doh, so here it is.



I really like the forward tow design and raised tail. The only part I really don't like is having to disconnect the trailer so the plane can be unloaded. I'm thinking more of using a hydraulic lift on the back to raise and lower the tail, with fold down or slide out ramps for the front wheels to roll off the back of the trailer. With the spar end covers Peer built and covering the wing end with some plexiglass or metal, I think towing in the forward direction would work fine. One other thing. Having a lot of towing experience, it is wise to put a full bed on the trailer or minimum wire mesh. The same goes with the inside of the wheel well of the fenders. Rocks can really make a potential bad day when you have to fix fodder damage.

Thoughts?

Todd

Todd, what you described is essentially what I am going for. The ramps will be removable and I can just drop them in the bed of my truck (Tundra). As for the full bed, I still need to figure out how to make this happen in a manner that is both easy and cost-effective. Same with covering the insides of the fenders.

My only concern so far is going to be the amount of overhang of the plane behind the trailer. With the wings folded, they extend just under four feet (as I recall) past the tailwheel. Do I tie a red flag to the end and call it good, or do I build a retractable trailer extension and then move the lights and license plate back to that? I'm not sure yet.

I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, and also as easy to load/unload as possible.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:12 am Todd, what you described is essentially what I am going for. The ramps will be removable and I can just drop them in the bed of my truck (Tundra). As for the full bed, I still need to figure out how to make this happen in a manner that is both easy and cost-effective. Same with covering the insides of the fenders.

My only concern so far is going to be the amount of overhang of the plane behind the trailer. With the wings folded, they extend just under four feet (as I recall) past the tailwheel. Do I tie a red flag to the end and call it good, or do I build a retractable trailer extension and then move the lights and license plate back to that? I'm not sure yet.

I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, and also as easy to load/unload as possible.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

Awesome!

As for the red flag, I think I would have one back there no matter what. I think you'll be fine with the lights where they are, but suggest using LED bulbs since they are so much brighter and cut through fog and rain much better than incandescent lights.

I would also get some red/white alternating reflective tape and put that across the back of the trailer.

If you want to go to the ultimate safety, possibly install a middle brake light just below the tail that either connects to the elevated tail wheel or is on a removable or fold over stand. Nothing says STOP better than a big bright red light in a driver's eyes.

When I had motorcycles, I dressed my street bike in tons of red running lights and orange turn signals, making myself as visible as possible. Since our planes have a lot of monetary value and 10 times that in physical labor and hours put into them, I say do as much as possible/reasonable to make your plane/trailer seen. Insurance may cover the damage by an idiot driver, but it never covers the time lost waiting to get your plane back.

Not a bad idea on the third brake light somewhere...I would just need to figure out where and how to mount it.

As for the current brake lights, the trailer already has LEDs. I was very happy for that!

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:11 am Not a bad idea on the third brake light somewhere...I would just need to figure out where and how to mount it.

As for the current brake lights, the trailer already has LEDs. I was very happy for that!

And remember to take it off as it sure would look funny. Some UL nut (aren't we all?) with a brake light on the back of his plane!

I added a trailer lights female plug to the center of my end cross-member and fabricated a harness for a set of trailer lights. My thoughts are to hang these (port & starboard) to a length of PVC that will also serve as a brace/fixture for the ends of the folded wing.

I haven't worked that out yet as the kit showed up just as I was finishing the trailer conversion so it went on the back burner.

My brace for the tail end of the folding wings is in line with the tailwheel spring, so it would be at the same distance as the existing lights on the trailer. I'll have to keep brainstorming this.

And maybe I just need to add a "third brake light" to the plane and let it double as a strobe! haha

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:30 pm And maybe I just need to add a "third brake light" to the plane and let it double as a strobe! haha

Now that's an idea. Just have a pigtail easily accessible to plug the light into the trailer electrical!

You guys are getting too technical and upscale for us hillbillies.

Mountain Cat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:16 pm You guys are getting too technical and upscale for us hillbillies.

Ha! Please don't try and gain favor by promoting me to hillbilly status! I grew up in red neck city northern Californ-I-A!

WEEEE DOGGIES! I was in Calif. one time. I think Jethro was driving.

Mountain Cat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:59 pm WEEEE DOGGIES! I was in Calif. one time. I think Jethro was driving.

You met my uncle???

Good One!

Agree!

I think Peer wins this round.

I concede, he gets a cookie or a cold one, whichever he chooses.

Why not both?

Cookies and beer go together...right? RIGHT?

Of course! Here in hillbilly land we have a mixture called snapper juice. Unknown to the ATF. You can drink it, clean metal with it or burn it in the ultralight engine. It decarbons the 2 stroke, and you at the same time.

The best kind of snake oil! haha

I think this guy needs to add one more axle to his trailer setup. His truck is kind of puny too...

Now I have trailer envy. Hahaha

Been welding for the better part of the day and have the trailer frame completed. I've started mounting the runners. Getting a little closer!

The winch will likely interfere with the nose of the plane so it will get lowered and moved closer to the tongue. I still need to add bracing to the front of the ramps. And then figure out how to elevate the tail.

Work on the trailer has been slowly progressing. I removed the axle this weekend, which was a process. Bolts were both rusty AND painted over, so it took a breaker bar and a lot of penetrating oil. The U-bolts were removed and cleaned up, then all was reassembled. It'll be removed again soon enough to remove two leaves from each spring to soften the ride a bit.

My order of 2x3 steel was received yesterday, so now it's just a question of time to weld it in for the front braces.

I also winched the plane onto the trailer ramps just to test the system. it worked well. More to come, including pics!

A custom built trailer is the berries. Currently I am using a 6X14 flatbed that I've had for years. But I also use it for many things other than hauling aircraft. I've hauled them all over the east coast, mostly tail first, but a few nose first. Really noticed no difference either way, but I probably prefer tail first. Seems to work better for my purpose.

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:54 pm Work on the trailer has been slowly progressing. I removed the axle this weekend, which was a process. Bolts were both rusty AND painted over, so it took a breaker bar and a lot of penetrating oil. The U-bolts were removed and cleaned up, then all was reassembled. It'll be removed again soon enough to remove two leaves from each spring to soften the ride a bit.

My order of 2x3 steel was received yesterday, so now it's just a question of time to weld it in for the front braces.

I also winched the plane onto the trailer ramps just to test the system. it worked well. More to come, including pics!

Coming along really nicely, and looks pretty darn good.

Todd

I kind of considered making the trailer multi-purpose, but I don't really have anything else I need to haul; the few things I DO have fit in the bed of the truck (dirt bike, mountain bike, sailing dinghy).

I also considered towing backwards, but I have to travel about ninety freeway miles - it seemed a long way to haul with the airflow going the wrong way against the windscreen and control surfaces.

I was also concerned about the horizontal stabilizer contacting the tailgate in a tighter turn. Hopefully all works out well with the current design - otherwise it's back to the drawing board!

I would love an enclosed trailer but it would cost me approx $70,000. 6-7K for the trailer and 60+ for a bigger truck to pull it. Don't think my 21 Ranger would like it much.

Mountain Cat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:23 pm I would love an enclosed trailer but it would cost me approx $70,000. 6-7K for the trailer and 60+ for a bigger truck to pull it. Don't think my 21 Ranger would like it much.

When I first started reading your response, I was thinking - big toy trailer.

My sister and brother-in-law drive for Garber, a very large car/truck dealership. They swap cars/trucks from several states back and forth as needed. Many of the trucks they are swapping from location to location are in the $90,000.00 range. WT# ? I wonder where the people that purchase these things work, or more likely are in massive debt for the rest of their lives! Just twenty years ago, my first house (1400 sqft) was $115,000.00.

What happens when we stop buying them? Of course I'll never afford one.

I also find the price of new trucks ridiculous. There seems to have been a shift from "work horse" to "status symbol". Rarely (at least in California) do I actually see someone using their truck for it's intended purpose. I'm sure that's different in other states.

For now I'm very happy with my Toyota Tundra. It's comfortable enough for long hauls, old enough that I don't worry about dents and dings, and capable enough to haul anything I've dragged behind it so far.

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:33 am I also find the price of new trucks ridiculous. There seems to have been a shift from "work horse" to "status symbol". Rarely (at least in California) do I actually see someone using their truck for it's intended purpose. I'm sure that's different in other states.

For now I'm very happy with my Toyota Tundra. It's comfortable enough for long hauls, old enough that I don't worry about dents and dings, and capable enough to haul anything I've dragged behind it so far.

Yep, this morning my brother-in-law was transferring a Dodge 3500, a true work horse but with so many bells and whistles that I would be afraid of getting a scratch on it. It's retail - $87,000.00. I paid a lot for my Chevy Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1L big block. That was 22 years ago and was $32,000.00 with a $10,000.00 trade in. Scratches and dings all over, it's a work truck, but I think that's when automakers really started down the wrong path. Chevy advertised the Avalanche as an SUV for soccer mom's. In reality, the truck was a work horse. Haul the work crew to the work site, flip the rear seats into cargo mode, go load it up with material, back to the work site and unload. Reverse the process to take the work crew home. As for pulling power, the 8.1L pulls my 32' travel trailer without too much trouble. Pulling a trailer with the plane on it is going to be a piece of cake. I'm still considering a flat bed with a small enclosed living area up front and plane hauling on the back of the trailer (possibly enclosed). In those often wonderful weather conditions at Oshkosh (and other places), having an enclosed storage transport for the plane may not be a bad idea.

I have no problem with owners that actually use their big pick-ups for what they were intended for. I find that here 90% of the big pick-up's are used for going to Wally World to get groceries or a bag of mulch now and then. Never used for their purpose. My little Ranger tows my bird just fine and gets 27-28 mpg. Very light aircraft make sense in more ways than one. Got to love the Badlands/SkyRaider, etc.

I wish my Tundra got that kind of mileage...I am lucky if I hit 18.

Um, you both are lucky. Try 14 mpg if I stay off the highway and am really nice on the throttle, otherwise that drops to around 10 mpg, 7 mpg if I'm towing the travel trailer. Which is weird, because that's at highway speed (65 mph).

Well, it's been raining off and on here in LA, and never really drying out enough for me to want to start any welding. I am concerned I won't be able to finish a weld and shoot primer before the next round of rain hits.

But I did get enough of a break in the weather to tackle the leaf springs. I was able to remove two of the four leaves (leafs?) on each side and mock the suspension back up (for now). I have a new set of U-bolts on the way, as well as the brackets to hold the leaves in line with each other. I've also come up with a simple design for the rear support, but more on that later.

While having the wheels off the ground, I gave them both a spin. The right is quite silent, and the left is a bit noisy (as in I can hear it spinning, versus the other side). I pulled the hub off and noticed that the grease on the inner bearing is brown - apparently some water worked it's way in past the rear seal and left a thin coat of rust on the roller bearing surfaces. (Not surprising - it WAS a boat trailer.) I cleaned it up as much as I could, regreased it and reassembled it for now.

When I first bought the trailer home (30 miles or so) the first thing I did after parking it was hop out and feel the hubs. Both were slightly warm to the touch, as expected. To be honest, I haven't messed with a trailer in a few years...is any noise from the hub acceptable? Perhaps even expected? Let me know! It will probably be the last thing I tackle after the build is done, since I'm not towing anywhere for now.