Badland Part 103 Pilots and Builders Forum

Hi Guys. I ordered a Badlands F-3 kit in August. What are others experiencing as far as wait times prior to delivery? I was told by Chris that it would be 10 to 12 months?? Any surprises good or bad? Anxious to get started.

Hey Kevin! The Badlands kit take some time to put together AND they have become quite popular as of late, it seems. No surprises as I recall. Are you picking it up or having it shipped? I had the pleasure of picking up phase 1 of my kit (fuselage and tail feathers) when Chris was still in Las Vegas...a short hop from where I am in Los Angeles.

I'd be interested in seeing some answers to this as well. I was told 10 months back in May, and Chris says that should still be a good estimate. I don't think I've heard of anyone getting one that quickly, though he DID just add 1.5 employees which is something he didn't have in the past. Of course I don't know how his order volume compares to the past either. All I can do is hope he's right.

Rusty

13brv3 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:52 am I'd be interested in seeing some answers to this as well. I was told 10 months back in May, and Chris says that should still be a good estimate. I don't think I've heard of anyone getting one that quickly, though he DID just add 1.5 employees which is something he didn't have in the past. Of course I don't know how his order volume compares to the past either. All I can do is hope he's right.

Rusty

Just spoke to Chris a few weeks ago. He said his 1.5 employees is more like 2.5. Both guys work early, through lunch, and late all the time. They love building the planes and Chris said they have helped reduced his workload a great deal. Hopefully they'll be able to reduce the backlog substantially.

Todd

Thanks all. I will be picking mine up along with a neighbors at the same time, Hopefully early summer.

I talked to Chris this week over email to get a quote and lead time. He said the current wait time is about 17 months.

While that seems like a long wait, I'd say that's actually a good sign he's putting out a quality product.

Flex wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:00 pm I talked to Chris this week over email to get a quote and lead time. He said the current wait time is about 17 months.

While that seems like a long wait, I'd say that's actually a good sign he's putting out a quality product.

I'm not sure I'd say that's a logical conclusion to a long wait time, BUT by every single account I've ever heard, Chris is a perfectionist. The wait time is likely relative to what you're buying as well. A basic kit is going to be faster to produce compared to one with quickbuild wings, or an order for a finished and flying aircraft. I just wish we could get some actual delivery figures, but every time I ask I hear crickets.

17 months is getting a bit ridiculous IMHO. The reason being that people’s “life” situations can change dramatically in that amount of time. Furthermore, 17 month wait then maybe a year beyond that for assembly. If a manufacturer can’t produce a product in 17 months I’d suggest they need more help. Some clear and regular communication would go a long ways in preventing discontent, speculation and misunderstanding. That is part of what we are paying for.

Kevin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 8:19 am 17 months is getting a bit ridiculous IMHO. The reason being that people’s “life” situations can change dramatically in that amount of time. Furthermore, 17 month wait then maybe a year beyond that for assembly. If a manufacturer can’t produce a product in 17 months I’d suggest they need more help. Some clear and regular communication would go a long ways in preventing discontent, speculation and misunderstanding. That is part of what we are paying for.

Buyers are on the wrong end of the supply and demand curve right now. While these wait times and deposits aren't great, they're still far better than companies like Kitfox and Just Aircraft. I looked into both of those, and they're over 2 years out and require 50% NON-REFUNDABLE up front. They could probably require 100% up front and still have more orders than they can keep up with. Production capacity would be a fine line to walk. It's easy to think you'd just add resources, but I bet a lot of companies have gone out of business because they ramped up production for a temporary surge in orders, then lost their shirts when the orders fell off back to more steady level. Chris does seem to be playing the long game, which is good.

Personally, I'll stay committed to the Badland order, and hope it shows up close to the 10 months that was estimated. In the future, I won't sign another sales order that doesn't have a delivery date commitment. There should also be a way to allow your slot to be transferred to another customer to prevent a large loss of deposit.

13brv3 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 9:33 am

Kevin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 8:19 am 17 months is getting a bit ridiculous IMHO. The reason being that people’s “life” situations can change dramatically in that amount of time. Furthermore, 17 month wait then maybe a year beyond that for assembly. If a manufacturer can’t produce a product in 17 months I’d suggest they need more help. Some clear and regular communication would go a long ways in preventing discontent, speculation and misunderstanding. That is part of what we are paying for.

Buyers are on the wrong end of the supply and demand curve right now. While these wait times and deposits aren't great, they're still far better than companies like Kitfox and Just Aircraft. I looked into both of those, and they're over 2 years out and require 50% NON-REFUNDABLE up front. They could probably require 100% up front and still have more orders than they can keep up with. Production capacity would be a fine line to walk. It's easy to think you'd just add resources, but I bet a lot of companies have gone out of business because they ramped up production for a temporary surge in orders, then lost their shirts when the orders fell off back to more steady level. Chris does seem to be playing the long game, which is good.

Personally, I'll stay committed to the Badland order, and hope it shows up close to the 10 months that was estimated. In the future, I won't sign another sales order that doesn't have a delivery date commitment. There should also be a way to allow your slot to be transferred to another customer to prevent a large loss of deposit.

I have to agree with the both of you on several issues and comments. I was initially interested in Badland aircraft when I saw the F5, the Titanium framed version. That was in March of 2021. The F5 was listed at somewhere around $34 to $38K (I think). It's been a long time, so that may be off a bit, but it was under $40K. Currently, there are only two F5's, the second kit was completed sometime around July of 2021. From my last conversation with Chris two months ago, neither are flying at this time. I didn't ask why. When I submitted my first deposit, it wasn't the full amount needed to start the kit build. I knew this and I take that into account. I was hoping that it would allow the Titanium to be purchased. The Russia invasion started in February 2022. Chris and I agreed on $10k to get the ball rolling in November 2022. With the Russian invasion of Ukraine going into full tilt and most Titanium coming from Ukraine, I knew the price was going to skyrocket, and it did. Chris told me that there was a 195% increase in the cost. That was in August 2021, and of course it has continued to climb ever since. The F5 hit $42K soon after that time. Chris suggested that I go with a 4130 frame instead. At that time he didn't have the full picture of what my flight mission was. I need/want the 30lbs less weight, so I pushed on with the F5 even with its increased price. Chris was working on getting the 4130 and Titanium material CNC cut and shipped to him ready to weld. This of course would eventually speed up production, but it caused a good 6+ months of delay getting the cuts from the supplier verified. By September 2022 there were only a few minor issues to be resolved.

I mentioned to Chris that I was retiring and moving to Florida in July of 2023, so hoping to have the kit sometime after that. This was also about the time I started looking for training. My luck was good at the time. Near Starke FL where I now reside is Holladay Aviation, and they trained ultralight flying. I contacted them and made arrangements for training. The last time I flew was in 1999 in a 152 and 182. I was ready for my practical, but life changes prevented me from testing. Namely, the FAA examiner I was scheduled with perished when an elderly pilot came in on top of the Cessna the examiner and a student pilot were in, coming in on final. Both planes went down, no survivors. I started my training over again on a move to Las Vegas just a few months after the above accident, but never did test.

I figured I needed to get Chris the full 1/2 deposit to get things rolling, so in November 2022 I added another $15K to the deposit, bringing the deposit to $25K (half the purchase price). The price had gone up. The F5 was now over $50k. This was with some changes that we had made, such as going with Oratex fabric and some other carbon fiber parts. Still, hard to swallow that increase. I had to put some restraint on myself, figuring that if the price goes up again, I'll have to bail out on this purchase. That would also mean no ultralight at all. I really want the best UL possible, but there is a limit and buying a lessor UL isn't in the plan. The F5 is currently listed on the website as not available because of supply issues.

Chris asked me to stick with him because for a short time I was looking at the Merlin Lite. A much cheaper and nice plane (not so much in looks, but performance is said to be really great.) I do like the F5 and all the Badland aircraft much more than the Merlin Lite, so I decided to stick with Chris. So that puts me with three years of interest and just shy of two years waiting for my kit build to be started. In that time I've retired, moved to Florida, started with Holiday Aviation (and dropped because they stopped UL training), purchased a house/small farm with a pole barn to do my build, and recently spoke to Chris (August 2024) about getting on the build schedule. I understand that the build of the F5 is much more difficult than for the 4130 birds, so I'm trying very hard to be patient.

Some points here are, it would be nice to have a list showing build order, so we can see where we're at on the build list, and see planes/kits move off the list. Life changes can adversely affect the purchase or cancelation for long wait times. I've had a lot of changes since my initial interest. Communication is an important part of a business. Though I know Chris and staff are very busy, I can only see a benefit of updating a build list and putting in a blurb or two on occasion. It would be good for customers to be able to see why there are delays. I get that the Russia/Ukraine war has caused delays and cost increases, but that doesn't tell me how much longer I must wait, not even an estimate. I can also understand that COVID was a major pain in the butt, along with the supply issues that it caused.

Chris also is such a perfectionist. His builds are absolutely without a doubt the best on the planet, but is that level of perfectionism hurting production? Is this perfection overkill? Some would say yes, some would say no. I like the perfection, being a perfectionist myself. However, I also have had to learn to back off a little bit because my work production was causing delays. My former bosses got figured how far they could push me where I'd say "good enough". Typically, my good enough was still far above their good enough measurement.

I've had a lot of life changes, and I'm not getting any younger. The flight missions I want to do required the F5's weight saving Titanium frame. I explained this to Chris on our last phone call and he agreed, and now understands why I need an F5. I've done the calculations and this is not an option I can change.

Peer and I started this forum to help answer questions about Badland Aircraft, to support the plane/builds, and Chris as much as possible. To some degree, I think we've helped. On the flip side is that the demand for Badland Aircraft is so large that it's causing issues for current and potential customers. As Chris told me once, the planes sell themselves, he doesn't have to do anything in that area.

Can he expand? Yes, and he has to a degree. With his 1 full-time and 1 part-time employee (who both work longer hours than they are required) the build times have been reduced. The problem is being so far behind, that playing catchup is very difficult.

My situation is worse. The F5 build requires the changing of many of the tools in the shop. Titanium is a tough metal to weld and shape. The build of an F5 takes 3 times as long as building a regular 4130 F series kit/plane. Chris could go get a loan and/or investors and hire a bunch of people to ramp up and cut build times. The problem is, as was mentioned, what happens if the bottom drops out? I've also worked for companies that went from understaffed to way over staffed (hyper growth), and it simply doesn't work. The truth is, once you get past about 8 employees, quality, and production starts to drop. Yes, production is faster than if those people weren't on board, but it's not a 1 for 1 increase. We've all worked at places where we've seen employees screw around more than they work, yet if they weren't there, our workload would increase to the point of being frustrated from the workload. So what does an entrepreneur like Chris do? Plus, are customers willing to give up the quality work that Chris insists upon for possibly questionable work? Luckily, Chris has mentioned that the two employees he has are outstanding.

For me, I've really got no choice. If I want an F5, I'm going to have to wait. I do call Chris from time to time and I bug the hell out of him about "where's my kit", and yes, we get into some arguments about it. Typically though, this passes, and we continue to try to get my F5 into production. Hum, speaking of that, it's about time for one of those phone calls

Todd

Badland-F5 Pilot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:36 am
Some points here are, it would be nice to have a list showing build order, so we can see where we're at on the build list, and see planes/kits move off the list. Life changes can adversely affect the purchase or cancelation for long wait times.

Todd

Hi Todd. Some good points, and perhaps the longest post I've ever read. Do you need admin privileges for a post that long

I do like the idea of the production order. If he only built basic kits, it would be easy, but his willingness to build kits to any level of completion has to be a major complication when it comes to production delays.

Chris knows I won't be happy if mine goes much over the estimate. I had an opportunity to buy a Kitfox Lite for a good price, and I was considering cancelling my order. I spoke with Chris, and my only option would have been to donate about $3k to his business per the sales contract. I don't see any reason why he can't allow the next person to order to take over your slot, and refund nearly all of your deposit when he gets theirs. I agreed to those terms when I signed it, but won't sign another sales contract without a reasonable cancellation option and a firm ETA. Of course until the supply and demand curve changes, your option is take it or leave it. Again, his terms are MUCH better than many other companies.

In the mean time, I bought an old Kitfox 4 kit that's never been built, only to find out that it has less headroom than the Kitfox 4 I sat in recently. That was going to kill time until the Badland got here, but now it's probably going to be on Barnstormers. Selling it will be easier than having my neck shortened

Cheers,
Rusty

13brv3 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:28 am
Hi Todd. Some good points, and perhaps the longest post I've ever read. Do you need admin privileges for a post that long

I do like the idea of the production order. If he only built basic kits, it would be easy, but his willingness to build kits to any level of completion has to be a major complication when it comes to production delays.

Chris knows I won't be happy if mine goes much over the estimate. I had an opportunity to buy a Kitfox Lite for a good price, and I was considering cancelling my order. I spoke with Chris, and my only option would have been to donate about $3k to his business per the sales contract. I don't see any reason why he can't allow the next person to order to take over your slot, and refund nearly all of your deposit when he gets theirs. I agreed to those terms when I signed it, but won't sign another sales contract without a reasonable cancellation option and a firm ETA. Of course until the supply and demand curve changes, your option is take it or leave it. Again, his terms are MUCH better than many other companies.

In the mean time, I bought an old Kitfox 4 kit that's never been built, only to find out that it has less headroom than the Kitfox 4 I sat in recently. That was going to kill time until the Badland got here, but now it's probably going to be on Barnstormers. Selling it will be easier than having my neck shortened

Cheers,
Rusty

Hey Rusty, I am the admin and I set up the board - hahaha, so I can do a lot, and sorry for the long post. I wanted to give Chris praise as well as show the delays that customers may run into. Chris is truly overloaded, but is also one of the hardest working people I know.

I think you're exactly right about the basic to full built option. That makes it very difficult to estimate time of delivery. The other thing that I failed to mention is that Chris is always working to make the builds easier, faster, and more robust. That's his perfectionist kicking in. As a perfectionist, it's very difficult for us to say "good enough". I fight with that a lot with projects I'm on. I have to come to the conclusion that what I've built is of high quality, and it'll do the job. Is there room for improvement? Almost always, but I have to stop at some point and give the results to the person asking for the product. I'm former law enforcement, and as a perfectionist, my reports were very detailed. Chris was also in law enforcement, I can only imagine that attorney's hated his reports because of the squeaky clean reports he's written.

I agree that it would be good to bump those in line that haven't the funding in agreement with his business payment practices. Honestly, I'm not sure what that policy is, so he may be doing that. I really don't know. I'm kind of in a special position though with the F5, so I understand the delay in producing my kit. On the flip side, that doesn't make it any easier that I have my plans completed (house and pole barn ready for a kit) and that I've been waiting so long. We did have a production date set, but that happened to interfere with me moving to Florida. On my part, I told Chris that he could bump the completion date because I simply wouldn't be able to pick up the kit. I don't want my kit taking up space and causing issues for him and others waiting to get their plane. However, that time has come and gone, and it's time to get this done. That was my last conversation with Chris and he agreed. It's been too long and time to get moving. I agree his terms are reasonable. I have offered full payment. Chris said no, hold off, he'd get the kit done. I hope to have the kit by next spring. Chris told me he can get the Titanium. I know it's going to be expensive. I would absolutely love to get the kit early enough to get it built and take it (even only partly completed) to AirVenture next year, but we'll see.

Yeah, neck operation or build a bubble in the top of the cabin....na, neither is a good option!

Todd

Badland-F5 Pilot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:21 am
I agree that it would be good to bump those in line that haven't the funding in agreement with his business payment practices. Honestly, I'm not sure what that policy is, so he may be doing that.

I asked about refunding my deposit when the next buyer sends money, and his reply was that he "can't" do that. Obviously he "could" do that, but I presume he "won't". The sales agreement does specify the cancellation fees, and he's sticking to it. Again, I signed it, so I'll stick to it as well.

The concern with all kit aircraft deposits is that the money is gone, and if anything happens to the business, you're never getting the money back. There are lot of things that can happen to a business that are out of their control, such as lawsuits, injury/death to major owners, fires, etc. It makes me nervous to spend a year hoping nothing bad happens to the business. It would be different if your money was in escrow, but I seriously doubt that's the case.

Rusty (hoping nothing bad happens)

13brv3 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:23 pm
The concern with all kit aircraft deposits is that the money is gone, and if anything happens to the business, you're never getting the money back. There are lot of things that can happen to a business that are out of their control, such as lawsuits, injury/death to major owners, fires, etc.

I'm right there with you on this. In my opinion, the money should be in an escrow account and only be able to be used for my order. I don't think many businesses follow this. It does bother me that a company may be using my deposit to build someone else's product. Like you said though, we're sort of at the mercy of the business that does this if we want their product. The deposit can simply disappear for many different reasons.

For me, I set up a separate savings account and built up the full funding for the plane. If something were to happen, the only effect is that I'm out the money. I didn't take the funds from any other account, putting those accounts into possible jeopardy if I can't get the money back.

This goes back to the old saying, if you can't afford to lose the money, you shouldn't have moved towards purchasing the product. Very similar to loaning money - if you can't afford to be paid back, you shouldn't have provided the loan in the first place. While the loss would hurt, and I wouldn't be happy about it, It really wouldn't affect me financially much. Mentally, I'd be kicking myself in the butt for being so stupid.

Badland-F5 Pilot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:41 pm
For me, I set up a separate savings account and built up the full funding for the plane. If something were to happen, the only effect is that I'm out the money. I didn't take the funds from any other account, putting those accounts into possible jeopardy if I can't get the money back.

This is a Dave Ramsey thing. When buying toys, you have to be okay with piling up that amount of cash in a fireplace and torching it. It's fine to buy toys, but it cannot be to the detriment of any other budgeted line items. You're doing it right.

mrpilotron wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 10:18 am

Badland-F5 Pilot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:41 pm
For me, I set up a separate savings account and built up the full funding for the plane. If something were to happen, the only effect is that I'm out the money. I didn't take the funds from any other account, putting those accounts into possible jeopardy if I can't get the money back.

This is a Dave Ramsey thing. When buying toys, you have to be okay with piling up that amount of cash in a fireplace and torching it. It's fine to buy toys, but it cannot be to the detriment of any other budgeted line items. You're doing it right.

hahaha, it's like you know my history.

My mother worked for CBI (Credit Bureau International). Unlike collectors, she aided people in understanding that "needs must be met before wants". This and many other good financial habits were a part of my and my sister's growing education by her, long before Dave. Too many people these days have this backwards. It's all about instant satisfaction, and forget about future needs and getting buried in monthly payments. Very unfortunate.

For me, I certainly hope the fireplace doesn't get lit. I'd much rather have the toy, so I'm still waiting.

I like Dave. It's hard to go wrong following his advice.

Todd

Does anyone on here have a delivered kit?

I do. I believe it's actually the very first kit. I picked it up in April 2020 in Vegas. An F-3 Flyer. I'm ashamed to say I haven't flown it yet, but it's pretty much ready to go, aside from completing an engine run-in and a few miscellaneous things.

Kevin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:39 am Does anyone on here have a delivered kit?

We've actually got several on the forum Kevin. Here are a few you can take a look at and feel free to asking questions.

Broughtonkicks (Barry)
viewtopic.php?t=433

ksatter26 (Kurt)
viewtopic.php?t=416

KSXKflight5 (LM)
viewtopic.php?t=244

Todd

Hey Todd, depending on whether Kevin means they built the plane themselves (versus Chris built it), I know Kurt definitely built his.

He's not active on the forum that I am aware of, but there is Doug on the east coast (Pennsylvania?) who is building his own as well.

I haven't posted in a good while but I've solved my trailer and one-dtop-overnite fuel leak problem. I hope to get the beast back to the airstrip to continue taxi testing and crow hops in the next few days.

To address the kit lead time. My F-3 is serial number 15. I placed the order about the middle of September 2021 with a 50% deposit (sending Chris the balance over the next few months) and picked it up in MN ON 22 September 2022. So a year.

Check my build log and discussion posts for more detsil.

What would i do differently?

(1) Toe brakes ... My recent T-craft time has shown me that I may have to fly shoeless.

(2) the Polini 303 is nice, but parts and service is horrendous ... see the build log. Today I'd opt for the ThumpAir 4-dtroke

(3) Oratx is expensive, but not having to paint is a real plus ... my painting skills are as poor as my welding ... luckily not needed. However. When I ordered the materials they followed Chris's pattern layout and I got (and paid for) about 40% more materials than required for my quarter-nsked configuration.

Thanks all for replies ref. delivered machines, very encouraging.
Kevin

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:06 pm Hey Todd, depending on whether Kevin means they built the plane themselves (versus Chris built it), I know Kurt definitely built his.

He's not active on the forum that I am aware of, but there is Doug on the east coast (Pennsylvania?) who is building his own as well.

Good point.

Kevin, we don't have any statistics on which are building and which are purchasing ready to fly Badland aircraft. That's a closely guarded secret by Chris

Todd

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:06 pm Hey Todd, depending on whether Kevin means they built the plane themselves (versus Chris built it), I know Kurt definitely built his.

He's not active on the forum that I am aware of, but there is Doug on the east coast (Pennsylvania?) who is building his own as well.

I guess I should have included in THIS post that I also built mine.

I'm not sure who else did.

Kurt, I am anxiously awaiting news of your next taxi tests and accompanying videos! Fingers crossed that you are able to get back out there sooner rather than later!

LA F2 Flyer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2024 6:06 pm Kurt, I am anxiously awaiting news of your next taxi tests and accompanying videos! Fingers crossed that you are able to get back out there sooner rather than later!

Agreed, looking forward to hearing from him. The good thing is the weather must be getting more reasonable that it was just a few months ago!

Go Kurt!

Todd

I waited 15 months for my kit. I am very pleased with the quality but I am having some problems with incorrect and missing parts. Chris has been vrey good about support and is making things right .

Chris is very responsive to parts problems. Those that we had on my build were from his suppliers ... especially the Polini engine folks.

Chris is constantly improving the design and 2 or 3 times I had either older (or newer) parts that needed to be swapped out. Aircraft parts confusion centered around the solid rod tailwheel spring, the upper flying strut inserts and flapperon horn inserts mostly.

If you go with a Polini engine, the Italians shutdown the month of August for European Vacations. Loooong wait times.

Are there people here that would be willing to give advice to a new builder? It seems that I am fighting various issues on almost all portions of this build.

Absolutely Craig! Ask away...but may I suggest starting a new and unique thread for each specific issue? It'll help searches in the future (unless I am way off base here?).