Badland Part 103 Pilots and Builders Forum

Hey group, looking to replace my challenger 2 with a Pt 103 aircraft with folding wings. Would the Badlands bird be a good choice? Thanks, Allen

Hi Allen. One of the things that attracted me to the Badland F series is the enclosed cockpit, similar to your Challenger 2. I love the ultralight field of aircraft and the freedom it provides to pilots. The co-founder of the forum is just about done with his build and he's told me a number of times the advantages those folding wings are going to provide. All the Badland F series planes wings can be deployed and folded by one person, so no help needed. However like with any folding wing aircraft, if you have someone around it's always nice to have an extra set of hands, but not mandatory. So far I've not found any UL that has folding wings and enclosed cockpit like the Badland design. Chris (the owner of Badland Aircraft) has said many times when asked why he designed the Badland series - He wanted an ultralight that looks and fly's like a regular GA aircraft. The F series pretty much does that as best as possible. Plus they all have the advantage that if you want a larger engine and fuel tank you can have the plane certified and tail number assigned. I believe it's the best UL with STOL capability, in a tail dragger and enclosed cockpit design.

If you have any specific questions or concerns, please feel free to ask. If we can't provide answers, we'll get in touch with Chris and have him give some feedback.

Thanks,
Todd
Badland-F5 Pilot

Thanks for the reply. I've owned 2 Kitfoxes and the Badlands folds the same. But with the challenger, the nearest airport is an hour away. We have a grass strip 6 miles from the house but no hangars. So a folding wing ultralight is a viable option. Kolbs fly like a truck and I just prefer something else. Since instructors are getting harder to find and the FAA making it harder, Pt 103 is looking better all the time. I fly in the mountains in the middle of WVa and most of our strips have a big 'H' in the middle of them. Been a private pilot and A&P for 40+ years so maybe time to "move up" to ultralights.

I envy you having GA Kitfox planes. I love the plane but yes, expense to fly and maintain is crazy. Well, then maybe you're aware that the Badland series is actually a modified Kitfox Lite! Yes. Chris purchased the jigs and forms for the Kitfox Lite, I believe from Believe, who purchased from Kitfox. I'm sure you recognize the similarities to the Kitfox. I also looked at the Kolbs, and though not a bad looking design, the folding wings are a big draw for me as well. Another point I really like is Chris has done a super job at keeping the F series as light as possible with maintaining the strength for an off airport adventures. Flying around WVa would be great. I currently reside in Dallas which is fairly flat. I won't be doing much better for retirement in a bit over a year. I'll be heading to Florida. Of course there are plenty of little islands there to do some island beach hopping. Chris is pretty busy, lots of orders and I'm on the list for my kit. Once I receive the kit I'll be doing a complete video build and posting the build here. Chris will build to whatever level the purchaser wants. I want to do a lot of the work myself and customization including electric trim and minimal auto pilot. Though the few rules for UL are pretty strict, there are many things we can do that GA can't, so UL is a god option. I trained in a 152 and when another student wrapped it around a tree in Lake Tahoe, I stepped up to a 182. I never finished getting my certificate. Life issues got in the way, but I never lost the love of flying. When I saw the Badland Aircraft, I was hooked. Chris is a super guy too, loves the hanger talk. Looking forward to hearing what your final direction takes you.

Todd

I've paid alimony to GA planes in the past. The challenger is pretty cheap to fly. Its the hangar rent, insurance and drive to the hangar that gets expensive. Its amazing that Chris designed the F series to be true Pt 103 and still be a 'real airplane'. That is difficult to do with the 254 weight limit. I can't say what direction I'll end up going but the F series is the #1 choice right now. Where I fly, controlled airspace isn't a concern. I can fly all day and never see or hear another aircraft. Lead times for most all kits are out about a year currently so him being a one man show is incredible.

Good morning Allen. Agreed on the hanger rent and insurance. Plus maintenance has become pretty steep too. Add in annuals and reoccurring training and the pocket book soon becomes rather empty. When I was in training (1999) I think my total cost (aircraft and CFI) was floating around $2000.00 for 45 hours. I checked about a year ago with the schools here in Dallas - try upwards of $8,000 to $10,000! That's crazy. It's amazing anyone gets into GA anymore. At the same time also very sad. Agreed on Chris's efforts - pretty darn amazing. The technology has come a long way which has helped. The lack of information about UL's is an issue. I had no idea a year ago that the FAA gives 20Lbs for a BRS chute but they and other emergency chutes are in the 12Lbs range, so that buys a little extra weight allowance. Dallas has a lot of controlled airspace. In fact if I fly out of Rockwall Muni (F46) I have to take an immediate east turn or stay low to avoid it. I wish I lived out west as that's wide open. Instead, in Florida I'll have to go around or under much more controlled, but at least it's not as bad as here in Dallas. At least in Florida I can head north west and there's a lot of open space to play in. The only real limitation I see with UL is the 5 gallons max on board. However, I've done some calculations and it is possible to hop all the way across the country from Florida to California. Lots of stops, but the airfields are not much more than an hours flight. The toughest part is the altitude. There aren't many routes under 8,000 feet so that doesn't give much room for error flying over the mountains out west. On a best case that would only give about 2,000 feet AGL and hostile GL for that matter. Still, under the right conditions and proper planning (heavy emphasis on this), it could be done. Absolutely right about Chris and his one man (and one women - his wife assists) show. Last time I spoke with him he was telling me about getting a new computerized cutting machine to ensure all framing material he uses will be cut to very exacting lengths. Plus he's got some other tools coming in to ensure accuracy and speed in building the kits. I'm all for that. The more accuracy when being built by Chris, the easier parts will fit when I assemble. Well time to get over onto the other computer and get working. The boss seems to like that. I can hardly wait until retirement and I'm the boss! Have a great day Allen.

Todd

Hi Allen. I think you would have no problem building a Badland to be a legitimate part 103 UL. I covered mine with Oratex and was very conscientious of weight in all regards when building mine. It turns out that I didn't really need to be...mine comes in at roughly twenty pounds UNDER weight...to the point where tundra tires are a definite option. I have some room to play with!

As for the folding wings, as Todd mentioned, very easy to do by yourself. Chock the wheels and have the wings deployed in probably less than ten minutes. Feel free to reach out with any questions; I'm happy to provide info, pics, etc if you want/need them!

Thanks! The aircraft seems like a winner in all aspects. Since my wife doesn't fly anymore, a single place bush type plane would suit me just fine. And being a true Pt 103 is just icing on the cake (even including sprinkles). My favorite speed anymore is 55-60 mph and at 140 lbs soaking wet it would probably be a good performer with me. Now if we can get Chris and his wife to work 30 hrs a day producing kits!

Got an E-mail that the lead time for a kit is out 10 months currently. Got to hand it to him for running a small operation since that's tough to do in these current times. Guess I'll wait till he catches up a bit before I pull the trigger on a kit. A lot of things can happen in 10 months that affect him and I both. But then, if the aircraft is as good as it appears, he may never catch up. That lead time is not unrealistic for even the big box kit providers. So life goes on!

Good to hear he's doing so well, and I know I'm in that line of kit builds somewhere. The good part for me about having to wait is I've paid off everything I had on credit and refuse to use credit anymore. The waiting is giving me the time to build up the airplane fund to hand him. That way he's not delayed in the build and I don't have to think about any loan from a bank to make the purchase. Talking to him in the past a bit I know he's is trying to streamline the process as much as possible. You're exactly right about things can happen over those 10 months. Life interjecting itself on me is exactly why I never finished my GA certificate. Then just as I was getting back into the idea of flying in 04, I had a heart attack (so much fun). It was only mild, but even at that time the FAA hadn't come far to make getting through the medical with a previous heart issue very easy at all. It's still difficult today, but more than that the costs of both getting through the medical, training, aircraft rental, and all pretty much put that out of reach. The only option for me that makes sense is UL. However I don't care for the lawn chair and aluminum pole UL's. Even being a former long time motorcycle rider, I never did think much of the wind in the face thing that some like about UL's. Then I saw the Badland and that was it. So here I am waiting, being a fisherman you know. The day will come and I'll be ready. I hope you're not freezing like we are here in Texas! We woke up to 20 degrees outside. It is warming up finally, after 3 days of extreme cold (at least for Texas). Good to hear from you. Have a great weekend.
Todd

20 degrees! I hope it warms up to that here. Running between -5 and 10 here in the mornings. Add in a foot of snow and ice. Stay warm!

OUCH!

I saw temps and winters like this for a few years when I first moved into Texas back in 2001. Then it got nothing but dry and hot. We had one summer were we went above 100 degrees daily through August and didn't drop below 90 at night. That was brutal. Each year since about 2016 the winters have been getting back to what they were in the early 2000's, and if I remember correctly we had one 100 degree day last summer in August. My sister and her husband who live in Florida have also noticed that their weather is getting cooler. This year was one of the first in many where the orange crops froze, yet I remember when growing up when I was very young that the farmers had large fans in the orange orchards to help prevent freezing.

I'm liking the trend. Though cold, that cold air makes for much smoother air to fly in. I can put a heater tube on my F5 and dress warmer to keep the cabin warm enough to be comfortable. I'm thinking with what Peer found that his plane came in well under weight that I can possibly put foam insulation board in between the frame rails and then do Oratex on the inside as well as outside of the plane. Peer came in if I remember around 20Lbs below weight and the F5's titanium frame is around 20 to 30Lbs lower than the steel tube frame. That titanium is going to cost me a mint, but hey I'll be really close to retirement and I can't take the cash with me, so might was well have fun with it once retired. Total that puts my F5 in just over 200Lbs. The Hirth F-23 (http://www.recpower.com/F-23%202%20cycle%2050hp.htm) I plan (at this time) to use will put me back up 20Lbs but that's OK. Having that two cylinder 50hp opposed just sounds like a good idea to me. I'd like to have a 4 stroke, but their power to weight just isn't where I want it to be. Of course there other options that may eventually make it onto the market. Check out these two posts I put up in the Ultralight Engine Talk forum - viewtopic.php?t=29 and viewtopic.php?t=53. The good is that there are just a ton of options and ways to go. That's one thing I really like about UL's - we can do pretty much whatever we want. As I'm sure you know, even experimental's have to get FAA approval on their changes. I was surprised to see Trent Palmer had to get approval when he changed the tires, wheels, and brakes on his KitFox. It's just paperwork, but it's still nice we won't have to deal with that.

Well it's Sunday so I've got to get at it doing some updates to the forum server and then get some clean up work done around the house. Have a great day Allen.

I've got some experience with Hirth engines and contrary to what some say, the new ones are great engines. The F-23 50 hp is a sweet engine!

Good to now about the Hirth's. I hadn't heard anything bad about them, but can imagine that the issues are similar to other two stroke issues. I was pretty much raised with dirt bikes back when they were almost all two strokes, so I've got a great deal of experience with them. Granted, with flight much more care is needed. I certainly like that flat twin they make.

Todd

Well, challenger went down the road with the new owner today. First time without an airplane in a long, long time. May take a couple months off and chill awhile, then start the hunt for a replacement.

Good that's it's sold, sad that it's gone but hopefully it'll be seeing some air time with the new owner in the near future. Funny how we build a bond with a machine. Yet we also know that machine showed us a view of the earth most people never get a chance to experience. While you're chill'en, don't be a stranger. Hopefully in the next few months I'll finally get my order into build and a few months after that have it here at the house. I'll need all the experience I can draw on to give me advise on my silly ideas and the few good ones so I build my plane right.

I've built several over the years and its one page at a time. My first piece of advice is take a professional approach to building, flying and maintence. If you need a part, tool or advice, wait till you get the proper whatever to carry on. Some say its "just an ultralight" but it is just fast enough to barely kill you!

Excellent point and I totally agree. Better to do it right than to have to do it over - if you get that chance to do it over! I'll just pull over and fix it doesn't work well with aircraft. My life is worth a bunch more than this airplane so I will do it right. I'll also have pilots and others tagging along to keep me in line and doing the assembly the right way. One of the tasks is to increase the use of this forum, so I'll be video documenting the entire build from the pickup of the kit through testing and beyond.

One of my other hobbies is amateur videography. I'm not very good at it, but I enjoy the editing and all that goes with it. I'll have the cameras set up and when I screw up, everyone watching the build will know about it, as well as seeing the many successes through to the end.

I have a copy of the build manual. Chris has done a nice job on it, but as it with everything being built, there are always questions. Thank goodness that I've got a mentor and excellent builder to follow - Peer (LA F2 Flyer) here on the forum. He has his F2 almost completed. He recently built some wing supports to keep the wings from flopping about during tow on his soon to be built trailer. He's got a picture of it in the Badland Builds part of this site and many more here (https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/foru ... -ca.33770/) on the Home Built Airplanes forum. Chris has also been there when he's needed some advice. Most recently there were some question about the torque to be used on the bolts holding the prop on. A kind of important issue. The questions were answered and all taken care of.

Not recognizing the good number of sources available for advice is not the wise way to build something that can easily kill you. Of course there also has to be some logical capability in the builder to recognize what is good advice and what isn't. Since I like to go a little heavy on the safety side and I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, I won't be cutting corners.

Allen, to backtrack a bit, can you tell me more about the flight characteristics of the Kolb? I was always under the impression that they were nimble planes. One thing I really like about the Kolb is how it folds, with both wing and tail leaving you with a pretty narrow structure when folded. I wish the badland did the same, but I don't foresee any issues with trailering it regardless.

Kolb aircraft (all) have a high thrust line being the engine and prop sit higher than the wing. So you are basically flying the engine and not the wing. Turns are a bit different due to this and adding power quickly as in a go-around push the nose down and cutting power causes the nose to rise such as in a flare to landing. Can catch you off guard in a tense situation and cause problems. They are not difficult to fly once you understand the quirks of them. Don't expect them to fly like a fighter, as my challenger did. To me, they seem heavy, flying wise and not weight wise. And with the high mounted engine, holding the brakes and applying full power, you'll be looking at the ground in short order. They once had a skid on the nose as a runner to prevent this, but newer ones don't. I am not trashing the Kolbs, just they are a different animal to fly.

As far as the wing folding, most all videos I've seen of them folding, it required two people to avoid any damage. The Badlands, Kitfox, Skyraider/Ridgerunner folding can be done easy by one person in a short time. If you need two to fold, what's the point, remove them. The big advantage is doing it by yourself. And this is easy to do with the Badlands type.

The flight characteristics you mention of the Kolb remind me a lot of my Honda Valkyrie. I had a car tire on the rear. Instead of pushing the handlebars in slightly the opposite direction to go into a turn at speed I actually had to lean into the turn and pull the handlebars into that turn. That big flat tire patch on the ground from the car tire changed the method of turning the bike. It loved to stay straight up. I had plenty of traction with that big rubber patch compared to a motorcycle tire. It also lasted much longer than a motorcycle tire ever could or would. The point being similar to the Kolb, it was different than what is normally done to control the bike. However, once accustom to it, which didn't take long it rode and performed great. It's not something I would hand over to another rider though, as the difference is enough to get the other rider into trouble pretty quickly. Same I could see with the Kolb, not something you would allow another pilot to "try" and fly. The car tire on my bike made it "my" bike only. Not that I would allow someone to fly my Badland either, but that slight difference is something that one had to always be aware of. When I would go ride another motorcycle, I had to make myself aware, it's not going to behave like my Valkyrie did. Same here too, not saying it's bad, it's just something different that one has to be constantly aware of. With the bike, at least I was very near the ground. No place as they say to pull over in the air!

As you mention Allen, the folding wings on a Badland can be done by one person. It's not super easy, but that's more about the size of wings and having to walk around a lot to get them folded, but it's more than do-able. Chris mentions this in one of the YouTube video's he's in - that two people can fold and put the plane in/on a trailer in 10 minutes. With one person it takes a little longer. Once I retire and get to Florida, I plan to eventually have a hanger, but until then those folding wings to put the plane in the garage will be very nice. And being able to do it myself is important as I won't have any assistance.

Thanks for the response. I had actually expected that the Kolb would be more nimble. Interesting.

I had actually seen one person demonstrate folding the wings solo, but it was less than graceful, to say the least.